TargetTalk

Hi, I have been shooting bullseye going on three years now, second year with my .45 Last year at Camp Perry I had my scores up in the expert range, but this year they have plummetted down into the low 700's. I have asked my shooting partners to watch me, but none have been able to pinpoint anything so i figured I would ask here.

At 50 yds my shots are going at about 8 o'clock in the six ring. At 25 yds my shots are mostly at the bottom of the black, maybe a little lower. I'm just wondering what could be causing these problems? I have my cadwell shooters guide, and I can see what it thinks I'm doing wrong. I'm just wondering if anyone would have a fix for me or had maybe gone through the same stage in your shooting?

Thanks for any input that might help get me over this problem.

How is your shooting with the .22?

Have you eliminated hardware problems (e.g., loose scope rings, reduced powder charges) as a possible cause?

My .22 scores are over 830 now. I'm still shooting the same load that I used last year. I did just put a new scope on, I should double check my mounting, but I'm assuming it will be alright.

One of the things that you may be doing is over gripping the gun. I found myself pulling shots because I was trying to hard. Are you having the same issues in practice as in matches? I tended to be more relaxed in practice and things would come off fine there then I would get in a match and start tightening my grip too much and pulling shots. Now I have list of things that I mentally go through as I pick up the gun starting with finger placement, wrist stiff, but hand not too tight. Also if I were you I would be dry firing between every shot for a while in slow fire. Dry fire can cure a lot of things that cause shots to fly, this includes, pushing, flinching etc. Also if you have a roll trigger on your 45 and a crisp one on your 22 this can also cause issues. Unless you are a really disciplined shooter, a roll trigger often causes flinching because you are more likely to anticipate the shot.

I agree with Isabel1120 But please excuse a really dumb question. Have you adjusted your sights for the different ranges ? Good Shooting Bill Horton

Not a dumb question at all, but yes I have been changing my sights. Aprx. 6 clicks from 50yds to 25yds.

I have been dry firing but probably not to the extent that I should be. I will be sure to start everynight now. Thanks for the tip on overgripping the gun, I may be doing this, I will pay special attention at practice tomorrow. Thanks for all of the great advice.

I was about to post a similar question when I saw this posting. I shot my first 2700 ever today. I had shot some .22 bullseye about 15 years ago and just recently got back into bullseye shooting in March of this year. A few weeks ago I posted a question regarding my new Les Baer 45 trigger. Baer said to shoot it for a while and see how it is after a "break in" period. It seems to be getting better than it was. This is my first experience with a 45 other than just a few shots over the years. I was pretty happy with my 22 score of 861 today. I shot the 45 for centerfire 799-13x and for the 45 match 799-12x. During the centerfire match in timed and rapid I was getting some nice groups at 3 o'clock in the 8 ring. Everything looked good but was pulling or pushing? everything to the right. I'm a left handed shooter by the way. In the 45 match shots seemed to just be going everywhere but where it looked like they should be going. I think i'm not getting a good squeeze and am jerking the trigger. During the centerfire match a guy I was shooting next to said that the gun wasn't in my hand properly and that was why i was flinging my shots right. I then tried reaching a little further around the grip and this seemed to help but didn't feel right in my hand. During the 45 match things just seemed to go all over. It looked good and recovery was not a problem but shots didn't seem to go where the dot was. To me this seems like a trigger control problem. What kind of practice or dry fire excercise can I do to get a smoother trigger squeeze down? I dry fired a few nights this week but how do I know if what I am doing is being done properly? Or am I expecting too much and just need to shoot the 45 more? By the way today was a whole lot of fun and I am looking forward to next months 2700 already! Scott

Scott,
Keep shooting and keep doing what you are doing. You didn't say how much shooting you did previously but your total score is solid Expert and your .22 by it's self is Master class shooting. Dry firing is important but nothing improves your scores better than more shooting.
Good luck,
Dan

Scott, as a left handed shooter I can relate. I often also shoot high right when I am under pressure in rapid fire. If this is not happening in timed fire then what I have done is realize that I am probably jerking the trigger in my haste and compensating for it by putting my dot low left as what I am currently looking for in rapid fire is all shots in the black. I am shooting about the same as you are generally in the CF and 45 matches. My 22 scores have not been quite that impressive. Isabel

In both dry firing and competition the strongest indicator of a problen with trigger control comes when you achieve perfect sight allignment and sight picture and the pistol has not yet fired. The impluse to try and shoot the shot at that moment is overwhellming. The solution is to begin the pressure on the trigger , then concentrate your mental effort on perfecting sight allignment and refine your focus on just the front sight. Ideally the pistol will fire a bit before that is perfect and you will begin shooting clean targets in timed and rapid fire. Your hold does not have to be perfect to shoot tens but trigger control must allow you to break the shot without disturbing hold and sight allignment. Good Shooting Bill Horton

NPA may be fine when dry firing and still be wrong. Best practice is to observe your recovery and remember how smoothly it occurs. Next try to remember if recovery is actually back into your selected aiming area. If it is not, try to make small adjustments until the recovery is exactly centered . last comment is if your sights are not alligned [ or neally so] look to your grip to correct this problem. All these ideas relate to a firing rythem that will complete your timed and rapid fire strings with in the time limits and will eliminate any feeling of being rushed or worse thinking you may be running out of time. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I consider "NPA" for pistol to be all about sight alignment and nothing about target. I might say Natural Position for (sight) Alignment. Even in shot recovery, the sights must come back to alignment on the seeing line. To orient the seeing line to the target aim area is mostly foot and body position. Why else do we train fire and dryfire on blank targets and walls?
And of course there are body position adjustments that will aid Natural Position for Alignment, and stability for that matter. Then you adjust your feet to the bull.

Just a note, I totally disagree with Mr Baer. The trigger should be shootable the first time out of the box. Claiming it will work itself in to perfection is just an excuse for not correcting the bad trigger job. Shame on him!!! Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,
I would say I have to agree with you, but on the upside it does seem to be a LOT better than it was. Scott

2650 Plus wrote:Just a note, I totally disagree with Mr Baer. The trigger should be shootable the first time out of the box. Claiming it will work itself in to perfection is just an excuse for not correcting the bad trigger job. Shame on him!!! Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,

I agree that the trigger should be shootable right out of the box. When I got my Les Baer .45 a couple of years ago, it was advertised as having a "crisp, 3.5 lb. trigger." Well, it had a crisp 5 lb. trigger. So I called him. He told me to shoot it for a while and the spring would gradually weaken. So I did, and now it's 3.5 lbs.

Regards,

Al B.

Isabel1130 wrote:Scott, as a left handed shooter I can relate. I often also shoot high right when I am under pressure in rapid fire. If this is not happening in timed fire then what I have done is realize that I am probably jerking the trigger in my haste and compensating for it by putting my dot low left as what I am currently looking for in rapid fire is all shots in the black. I am shooting about the same as you are generally in the CF and 45 matches. My 22 scores have not been quite that impressive. Isabel

Interesting. I'm also left-handed, and I find that my groups tend to run diagonally from high left to low right when I'm not shooting well. When I am shooting well, my groups are circular and centered.

As another interesting fact for left-handers, consider this. I place the thumb of my shooting hand along the top of the grip panel, since it seems to cause the rest of my hand to be aligned properly with the gun. Try placing your thumb in this position and then lock the slide back. Notice where the ejection port is in relationship to your thumb.

Al B.

So I shot me second 2700 this past Friday. I got "With Winning In Mind" and read it twice before I shot the match on Friday. All week I kept telling myself I shoot 870 with the .22. 870... no problem do it all the time. I had one poor slowfire target of 89 but other than that was shooting pretty good. I was checking the scoring but was not keeping track of my score. When it was over and I looked at my score card I shot 870 on the nose! It was almost a little freaky.

Shot my .45 in the centerfire match and did a little better this month. Shot a not so good 89 on my first timed fire target and then came back to shoot my second one and was noticing that my cases weren't going into my brass catcher. I was shooting and watching the brass bounce off the bar of my brass catcher out of my periphial vision of my right(non shooting) eye. The gun just seemed to go off like magic when it was supposed to and I shot my first 100 with the .45. I tried Isabel's advice on rapid fire and was aiming well left of the black to get the shots in the black. This helped my score and I ended up with 826.

In the .45 match I went back to trying to hold center and pay more attention to giving a good trigger "mash" but just wasn't doing it. Shot some nice groups in the 8 and 7 ring but they don't add up as nice as 10's and 9's. I shot better scores holding of the black to compensate but it seems like this isn't going to teach me proper trigger control. I got a new Rink grip for my .45 off of the forum here and putty'd it up to fit my hand and will see if that helps. It sure does feel nice. Love the Rinks on my Model 41. Scott

"Shot my .45 in the centerfire match and did a little better this month. Shot a not so good 89 on my first timed fire target and then came back to shoot my second one and was noticing that my cases weren't going into my brass catcher. I was shooting and watching the brass bounce off the bar of my brass catcher out of my peripheral vision of my right(non shooting) eye. The gun just seemed to go off like magic when it was supposed to and I shot my first 100 with the .45. I tried Isabel's advice on rapid fire and was aiming well left of the black to get the shots in the black. This helped my score and I ended up with 826."

Scott, I think you have stumbled on to the "no stinkin thinkin" philosophy of shooting that the Marine corps emphasizes. My theory is that trying too hard causes a whole host of problems and if you can get our mind off of the shot process (in sustained fire) and become more relaxed, good things start happening. I know that I am affected by the gun going off and the time pressures of rapid fire and I tend to do my best shooting when I am continually thinking dry fire especially on the first shot in sustained fire. You have to trust that your hold is good and your trigger pull must become almost an unconscious act. One thing the AMU talked about at their advanced clinic at Perry this year was manipulating your wrist to get the gun back on target after the recoil in sustained fire. Using your wrist is a big mistake. I have been guilty of that and a lot of us nodded knowingly and wrote that down when Henderson talked about it. Chances are good when you cleaned your target was that you were not working too hard to get your dot back on target. You were pulling the trigger smoothly and with confidence. The gun was there and you were watching the brass so your mind was not screwing it up. A good friend who is a high master said that one of the best pieces of advice he ever got from a fellow shooter at Perry happened when he was a sharpshooter. A guy next to him on the line was watching him shoot and said, "Want to add a hundred points to your score? Stop closing your eyes as you fire. The way to do that is to make sure you are watching for your brass with your peripheral vision." He tried it and it worked for him. :-) Isabel