Trigger/sights vs sights/trigger

[jackh]

I think this needs it's own discussion. We are on Pistol firing here.
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... 0&start=40

jackh wrote:
Well, just what is the difference between
1) triggering to not disturb the aligned sights, and
2) holding the sights aligned as you release the shot

David Levene wrote:
In 1) you are concentrating on the positive smooth trigger release, the sight alignment is done continuously by the "subconscious".

In 2) you are concentrating on aligning the sights in the aiming area, the trigger release is signalled by the "subconscious".

When viewed on Scatt, 2) often displays the infamous 0.25-0.35 second reaction time. This is absent with 1).

[Philadelphia]

I think releasing the shot without disturbing aligned sights is or at least hopefully becomes a single act of "shooting." There is no one without the other.

Beyond your two options, there is a third school of thought as well: holding aligned sights and using the trigger to "steer" the sights as pressure is applied to the trigger to release the shot.

IMHO, you're getting bogged down in the weeds and the forest is getting forgotten. Too much stinkin' thinkin'? Ultimately, all you are doing is holding aligned sights, on target, and applying pressure to the trigger to release the shot without disturbing that alignment through the shot and follow through.

In training, what you focus on mentally to achieve that will necessarily vary depending on which aspect of the process you want to work on and where you might be having trouble. When shooting for scores, I'd advocate that the training has made the process automatic and the focus is on following the process with no nagging doubts about the fact that doing so will result in best performance.

If your training/practice tells you that one or the other mental focus is, at this stage in your development, helping you to achieve aligned sights on target as the shot breaks, then make that focus part of your shot process. What I'd humbly suggest, however, is you avoid the distraction of over-thinking what to direct mental effort to when, if there is any doubt, the answer to that question is always simply aligned sights, on target . . . . ;)

[David Levene]

Maintaining perfect sight alignment within the desired aiming area is simply a case of not moving.

Given sufficient repetitions in training to create a muscle memory, suitable strength and general fitness, adquate "stillness" is easilly possible for periods of several seconds. The better you get at it the greater the "stillness" and the smaller the aiming area.

During those periods all that you have to do is increase the tension in one muscle (the trigger finger) without disturbing any of the others.

It's then all down to confidence and expecting to shoot a ten every time you lift the gun.

I wish I could still do it well but I was forced to give up doing sufficient training nearly 20 years ago. All of the requirements for stillness are long gone. I can still maintain pretty good sight alignment but the damned target keeps moving.

[2650 Plus]

David the difficulty with trigger only as a concious thought or subconcious reflex seems to be that the body reacts rather violently to the firing of the pistol and it has always been a problem for me if I am thinking about trigger instead of sights. My best results come when I fill my mind with thoughts relating strictly to sight allignment , partially to block all considerations of when the pistol is going to fire. The pistol fires with out my giving a hoot when that is going to happen. My concern is totally sight allignment and I want the pistol to fire as I am moving the sights into perfection. Scratch tens are still tens and if every thing comes togeather at nearly the right moment the results are spectactular. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

Bill, I am not saying this is the only way or the best way, just another way.

If you have done sufficient training that you are able to hold the pistol still within an aiming area of, for example, the 9.5 ring then you do not need to give it any more thought. I am not sure but I doubt whether conscious thought processes would actually be able to improve on that.

By concentrating on the positive smooth trigger release it does not mean that you know when the pistol is going to fire.

[alb]

... Too much stinkin' thinkin'? ...

Absolutely! Shooting is a motor skill, like driving a car, dancing, swimming or riding a bicycle. When done correctly, it is controlled by a part of the brain (the cerebellum) that isn't accessible by the concious processes of the cereberal cortex. In other words, the act of shooting is a form of 'tacit' knowledge -- we know how to do it, but we don't know how we know how to do it -- like speaking or understanding language.

'Choking' occurs when your tacit process becomes 'explicit', i.e., when your concious mind takes over. The feedback loops used by your cereberal cortex to conciously direct the shot process are a lot slower and less precise than the feedback loops in the cerebellum.

Of course, in order for a process to become 'tacit' or 'implicit', it must be trained to the point where you do it without thinking about it. So you practice pressing the trigger without disturbing sight alignment. Then you practice maintaining a good sight picture. Then you practice pressing the trigger while maintaining sight alignment and sight picture; all the while paying attention to the feedback that you get, both visual and kinesthetic.

But, at some point, you have to practice doing it the way you want to do it in a match, without concious control of the shot process. Once you get to a certain skill level, it really is 90 percent mental, i.e., making yourself 'let the shot happen' rather than trying to control it.

It takes lots and lots of practice.

Regards,

Al B.

[Ed Hall]

Very well put, Al B.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

[David Levene]

The feedback loops used by your cereberal cortex to conciously direct the shot process are a lot slower and less precise than the feedback loops in the cerebellum.

That is only a problem when you are trying to control one movement dependant on something else.

With my technique the trigger breaks irrespective of where the gun is pointing (unless a "stop" input has intervened).

Keeping the gun pointed at the right area is "simply" a case of keeping it as still as necessary. With sufficient training behind you that can easily be accomplished by the "subconscious".

The reason for taking positive control of anything is that it is easier to eradicate negative thoughts and ignore external events.

As I have said before, this is not the only way to shoot high scores, but it worked for me.

[Steve Swartz as Guest]

David:

Interesting perspective; one that I can't recall ever hearing from you before. I know we have discussed this specifically about a year ago, and perhaps this is a new epiphany for you? I find it interesting because it is so opposed my current thinking. It is also in contradiction to a variety of published opinions from somewhat authoritative sources; e.g. the AMU guide and a variety of other "How To" books. [the "holding the gun still" thing seems somewhat arguable; recognizing that the illusion of holding the gun stil may be a perceptual factor here]

From (flawed) memory of the last thread on this, consider that you have perhaps three main tasks to perform at the Moment of Truth:

- Keeping sights aligned
- Pointing the aligned sights at the desired area
- Releasing the shot (triggering)

Now IIRC the idea is to match the "best" thought process to each task; ie conscious/semiautonomic/autonomic etc.

Looking for other thoughts here?

Steve

[alb]

Now IIRC the idea is to match the "best" thought process to each task; ie conscious/semiautonomic/autonomic etc.

Steve,

It seems to me that there is a difference between conciously monitoring a process and conciously 'controlling' it. Bill talks about focusing on sight alignment and sight picture, and letting the triggering process happen subconciously. David talks about focusing on the triggering process and letting the holding process occur subconciously.

I wonder if either of them are conciously controlling anything, or just focusing their attention on observing some aspect of what they are doing, so that they aren't distracted by thoughts of their next mortgage payment, their current score, etc.

Bill and David,

You both talk about a "smooth trigger release." What kind of trigger do you use, i.e., long-roll, short-roll, or crisp, and is it one-stage or two-stage? It sound from your descriptions that the trigger is actually moving before the shot breaks.

The reason that I'm asking is because about 2 years ago I got some coaching from a high-master that I know. I showed him my Pardini SP, which has a two-stage trigger that at the time was set up with a very crisp release on the second stage. He dry-fired it several times and then exclaimed, "Wow! This has a really nice long-roll trigger!" He was pulling all the way through the first and second stages without any pause at the second stage.

It occurs to me that when discussing things like smooth trigger release, it would be helpful if we all had a common understanding of what we are talking about.

Regards,

Al B.

[David Levene]

....and perhaps this is a new epiphany for you?

Not really Steve, more looking back through my old shooting records and finding notes of various phrases (mantras?) I used during the shoot. They all referred to various parts of the trigger operation; smooth, positive, speed etc.

This led me to re-define one of the styles of shooting I had previously identified from Scatt files.

The first of these is what I call "conscious" shooting and typically shows an increased trace speed in the last half second before the shot fires.

The second style, which I refer to as "sub-conscious" exhibits a 0.25-0.35 reaction time (falsely) suggesting that the score would have been higher had each shot been released that reaction time earlier. I believe this to be indicative of either the shooter concentrating on the sights and the "sub-conscious" releasing the trigger as a reaction to a perfect sight picture or assigning both of those elements to the "sub-conscious".

The third style is the one have always referred to as "automatic". I usually described it "as the gun was going to fire no matter where the sights were aiming". Scatt files showed none of the fingerprints of the other two styles; no increase in trace speed and no displayed reaction time. I now believe that this "automatic" style is actually the result of operating the trigger independantly of where the sights are pointing.

[David Levene]

What kind of trigger do you use, i.e., long-roll, short-roll, or crisp, and is it one-stage or two-stage? It sound from your descriptions that the trigger is actually moving before the shot breaks.

Remember that I am talking about when I used to shoot well, which was with cartridge pistols (CF & StP) before I injured my elbow in 1992.

I used a 2 stage trigger with a very crisp second stage. The length of the first stage is not applicable as I always took up all of the first stage at the ready position.

[2650 Plus]

For ALB ,We have a misunderstanding concerning my shot technique. You posted that I use a method of trigger sights and sight picture, NOT SO. In my thinking about the shot process I disregard the target because it is the only thing that is not moving. All the target does is allow me to center .my hold. Once the hold area is reached there is no longer any reason to even consider the target. David [In His Last post ] Has described very accurately what I try to do in firing the shot. [ Thanks David] Good Shooting Bill Horton In rifle shooting I allow the shot to fire when sight picture and sight allignment are both correct. Thos is just an after thought. Again, Good Shooting Bill Horton

[alb]

For ALB ,We have a misunderstanding concerning my shot technique. You posted that I use a method of trigger sights and sight picture, NOT SO. In my thinking about the shot process I disregard the target because it is the only thing that is not moving. All the target does is allow me to center .my hold. Once the hold area is reached there is no longer any reason to even consider the target. David [In His Last post ] Has described very accurately what I try to do in firing the shot.

Thanks Bill.

So what kind of trigger do you use? It seems to me that gradually increasing pressure on a crisp trigger until it breaks is fundamentally different than pulling through a long roll. In the one case, you don't know when the trigger will break because your perception of the pressure you're applying is influenced by a number of factors, such as arousal level, etc. In the other case, you have a pretty good idea of when the trigger will break once it's moving, assuming that you've spent enough time with it.

In my own shooting, I've observed that if the shot doesn't break when I'm expecting it to, my whole arm jerks. It only seems to happen during a match, when my arousal level is higher, or when I'm shooting my .45, which has a heavier trigger pull. Don Nygord wrote about this in his "Nygord's Notes." He recommended a roll trigger as a way to cure this.

Perhaps your choice of what to focus your attention on during the shot process is influenced by the style of trigger that you use. I.e., if a roll trigger is easier to use and doesn't present the jerking problem that I described, then maintaining sight alignment would take higher priority by default. If a crisp trigger is more challenging (David already said that he was using a crisp trigger), then it might make more sense for him to focus on the trigger operation.

I described my experience with my high-master friend dry-firing my Pardini. He was obviously used to roll tirggers to the point where he couldn't even feel the second stage. When he dry-fired my pistol, he was operating the trigger in a fundamentally different way than I was. I recently set up my Pardini with a roll on the second stage, but I'm still not used to it, as reflected by my scores -- although it feels better, and I seem to be shooting a lot more X's. And I still get the occasional jerk reaction, as I'm not yet completely adapted to reacting to the movement of the trigger rather than the pressure (motor skill, controlled by the cerebellum), and I occasionally react to the pressure anyway.

Thanks,

Al B.

[2650 Plus]

AL B I shoot a very crisp trigger as any movement in the mechanism causes me to react as tho the pistol is about to fire. My concentration breaks and I have a tendensy to have the shot go high, right. So, crisp is the way I go. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[alb]

Thanks Bill. Interesting ...

[Mr. Lurker]

The third style is the one have always referred to as "automatic". I usually described it "as the gun was going to fire no matter where the sights were aiming". Scatt files showed none of the fingerprints of the other two styles; no increase in trace speed and no displayed reaction time. I now believe that this "automatic" style is actually the result of operating the trigger independantly of where the sights are pointing.

Forgive my entering this so far along, but I might have become confused. I am not really familiar with interpreting the traces from training devices like SCATT, either.

In relation to your third, automatic style, are you saying that being determined to pull the trigger correctly, regardless of aim (I assume that is a different way of expressing "accept your wobble") produces results equal to the others (i.e. concisous of the sights or the trigger)? Do you mean automatic in a sense other than unconcious?

I believe Brian Zins has said that he is often very aware of his trigger as he pulls, but is being aware different to concious? In other words, can you be aware of some aspect of the sights, trigger, etc. without conciously attempting to control it?

Just trying to get my mind around this.

[David Levene]

In relation to your third, automatic style, are you saying that being determined to pull the trigger correctly, regardless of aim (I assume that is a different way of expressing "accept your wobble") produces results equal to the others (i.e. concisous of the sights or the trigger)? Do you mean automatic in a sense other than unconcious?

When most people think about "unconscious" or "subconscious" shooting they tend to be referring to one of the main shooting elements (trigger and sights) signalling the release or adjustment of the other; most commonly the correct alignment and position of the sights signalling the release of the trigger. This does not happen instantly, it takes time for the signals to reach the muscles and for those muscles to react. This is commonly shown on systems like Scatt when they indicate that had all shots been released a certain period of time earlier than they were then the result would have been better.

This small period of time, typically 0.25-0.35 seconds, is the reaction time. By the time the signalled muscles have reacted and the trigger has been released, the perfect sight alignment and positioning have passed.

What I am suggesting is that the release of the trigger is disconnected from any other process. Holding the aligned sights within the accepted aiming area is delegated to the "subconscious". The trigger is released irrespective of where the sight are pointing.

I believe Brian Zins has said that he is often very aware of his trigger as he pulls, but is being aware different to concious? In other words, can you be aware of some aspect of the sights, trigger, etc. without conciously attempting to control it?

I am fairly sure that you can, even if it's only to call of the shot when they are outside of the acceptable limits.

[2650 Plus]

For Mr Lurker; My shot process involves complete awarness of each step in the shot process in a specific rythm with the physical acts. This serves two purposes for me . First it blocks inadvertant distructive thoughts and second it reinforces the actual physical process of delivering the shot on target. In other words I do not subscribe to the non thinking delivery of the shot and believe in controling my mind [ thought process ] to support the act I am executing. I hope this helps in your understanding a different approach to delivering the shot on target the same way every time. I also make every effort toadjust my emotional intensity to that level where I have the best control of my performance. I also work to eliminate all negative influences through out the process. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[jackh]

If I were to choose what was to be the most "conscious" element for me it would be seeing the sight. Then with an awareness of sight alignment and trigger pressure with sight picture taking care of itself. (don't ask me to explain picture because I can not). Then I think the subconscious is what guides the body to accomplish what is wanted.