TargetTalk

I finally went and got a laptop for my new scatt. John was right you need 2 hours the first time you shoot with it, 2 hrs or until your arm falls off. The second time is the same, its addictive! NO PELLETS, NO TARGETS,NO SCORE KEEPING, NO AIR, and after every shot it basiclly says "David you have no follow thru" .....You have a COACH .....$1400 invested (got mine cheap) with a laptop. Pays for itsself in a little over a year(if you shoot alot). Oz wants to buy mine used when I get tired of it (he might not ever get the chance) Hey stop the crying Oz you can borrow it! In just a couple days my hold is getting better but not the follow thru. I havent shoot a match on it yet but cant wait to start to compare the data over the next few weeks and months. Right now I guess what im posting for is to say"if you are thinking of buying one DO IT ! You can always sell it to Oz if you dont like it David

If I had the money I would and seen my morini isnt working im reduced to throwing pelltets at the target. sometimes when im shooting i recon i could group better by throwing the pellets

I'm not too worried... David, you have a short attention span. You'll be bored with and I'll get to buy it in a couple weeks extra cheap ;-)

Muffo... throwing pellets. LOL...

The biggest problem with Scatt is the origin. There is no way you can talk to them.

We have a fiscal situation here in Brazil: importation of software is not taxed, but the hardware is. In fact, they dump 105% (state + federal) on top of the invoce, including freight and insurance. Most of the price of scatt (or any other) is the software.

I've tried to get them to sell me separatedly, software in one invoice, hardware in other, all on credit cards, but no way. Have the feeling that nobody speaks English 'roun there...

jacques b gros wrote:Most of the price of scatt (or any other) is the software.

That is not correct, the software is free (just download it from their web site).

We all know that the price for the hardware includes for software development but, if they are giving it away on the web site, I can imagine why they would be loathe to issue a separate invoice for the software.

David,

Understand that they botched it, offering the soft free. They should have a limited access version, and upon payment they would supply a password to liberate full access.

I really think that the development of the soft cost a lot more than the development and fabrication costs of the harware...

Anyway, will have to pocket this thing when going abroad. Possible trip to Germany sometime this year.

Best. Hope your summer hits a sunday, this year...

Well this type of free software is not unusual - lets face it - you can't use it without the hardware so offering it for free is moot (ie you still have to get data from Scatt hardware somewhere to use it) Yes this means that the hardware can be shared but for all intents and purposes the software is uselss without the hardware.

I'd have to agree that the software (factoring in maintainence and support) is typically the biggest cost in such products.

David

Pleased someone else is enjoying their SCATT as much as I am. I've had mine for almost a year now and shoot for an hour 3 or 4 times a week. It is certainly addictive. You indicated you are going to collect then analyse your data. Do you have, or do you know where to get, information on how to interpret SCATT data? I have absolutely no idea on how to read the generated Shift, Speed, Coordination or Probability graphs, and if I could, how to transfer that info into methods to improve my shooting. At the moment it is a fabulous toy; I would like to make it a fabulous tool. Any suggestions?

I might be having problems with the interpretation of SCATT data but it is such a useful tool in other areas. One technique I use is to ...

Turn the paper target over. Shoot some sighters to the middle of the blank target focusing on sight alignment. Adjust the centre to where you think your shots indicate it should be. Shoot however many shots you want purely focusing on whatever you want - sight alignment, trigger squeeze, follow through.

Its a great way to focus on one aspect of your shooting without the "black" getting in your face yet it still enables you to check how good your intent was against the data posted.

I would be interested in techniques other people use to improve their shooting

Tony Mcg wrote:I would be interested in techniques other people use to improve their shooting

If you've not already read it, I posted a "Trigger Training with the Rika" thread a few years back. The thread also includes some Scatt use.

The referenced page is still available at Trigger Training with the Rika.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Ed
thanks for the reference and training tip - very useful. The SCATT system doesn't have preferences to eliminate the "black" (that I can find) but shooting to a blank target obviously isn't a problem.

Have you come across any useful SCATT data interpretation notes or point me to anyone who might know of some, if so I would be really appreciative for the tip. I sometimes feel this SCATT of mine is a bit like an iceberg - the bigger bit (how to get the most out of it) is under water/out of reach - still getting fun sliding down the sides though ;)

Tony

Tony Mcg wrote:Have you come across any useful SCATT data interpretation notes or point me to anyone who might know of some, if so I would be really appreciative for the tip. I sometimes feel this SCATT of mine is a bit like an iceberg - the bigger bit (how to get the most out of it) is under water/out of reach - still getting fun sliding down the sides though ;)

Tony

I've definitely run into the situation of, "Ok, how do I change that trait for the better?"

That is where a coach is most helpful, but don't rule out personal experimentation, as an alternate. This forum also has some readers with practical experience that can help. The The Hitchhikers Guide To Shooting Glory, from our host, also has two articles on Electronic trainers for readers' review:

Making the Most of Electronic Trainers - Part 1
Making the Most of Electronic Trainers - Part 2

Perhaps some others will chime in as well...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Ed, thanks for the links.

I had come across "Hitchhiker" some time ago. Your post made me go back and become, well, reacquainted - certainly worth the visit. A number of people have suggested "getting a coach". I am located many hours drive from the city of "Toofaraway"; just not doable. Also I have no Olympic, National or State ambition. I just want to shoot better and push my personal best up a notch whenever I can.

A couple of comments on coaches. When I went to high school (many years ago) there were maybe 50 teachers on staff. I roadtested most of them over my 6 years. Of those 50, there were maybe 4 or 5 who had the goods to inspire, lead, push and encourage me to do well in their subject. The others fell into 2 groups; those who didn't have the skills and/or experience to do the job at that higher level yet and a few who should have been doing something else. I figure finding a coach to get me to achieve at my highest shooting potential would not be as simple as looking up "good coach" in the phone book. Maybe it is like most sports. The more you play, assuming you have natural talent, the more you progress in the sport eg thru local, area, regional and state levels the more exposure you get to coaches who can add, modify, extend or refine something to your skill set.

Second comment more specifically on coaches and electronic trainers. In my quest to get more information on how to more effectively and efficiently use my electronic trainer I contacted SCATT in Russia. They were nice enough to email me back, indicated they didn't supply such material and suggested I get a coach. Where do coaches learn to not just use but get the most out of electronic trainers? Is it by word of mouth or are there manuals and courses? I came scross an article written by Scott Shaffer in 2003. It was in PDF format and I was able to download it from the net. I quote his introductorary paragraphs:


"This guide was put together by an individual on the use of the
SCATT™ brand of electronic trainer. This document was created
in early 2003 as the result of reading, discussing and using the
program and equipment for a period of several months.

As of the date of this printing, there was not yet a document in
English describing the use and interpretation of the SCATT
system. It does come with a document that contains information
on its set up and initial adjustment, but it does not cover the use of
the software and its data.

We are told that a version of a handbook is available in Russian
and a German translation is being created but it is not known
when the American version will be available."


The guide is excellent - a truely step by step guide on "How to Use and Interpret Scatt Data Acquisition" (quoted is the article title). It answered many of my initial queries and left me wanting answers to more. BTW if you are out there Scott thanks for going to all that effort and making the article available.

So again the question:

Where do coaches learn to not just use but get the most out of electronic trainers?

Tony mcg wrote:I came scross an article written by Scott Shaffer in 2003.

One thing to remember about that document, without being any criticism of it, is that (like the rest of us) he believed the bull Scatt were putting out at the time about the factors included in the f-coefficient.

It is actually just based on the speed and direction of gun movement at the time of shot release. As such, it is probably more use in a training environment than if it did include everything that Scatt originally claimed.

I just started using my Rika system and wow - I love it (the club has a SCATT but I can't see the difference really).

As a still novice shooter I have only a vague idea how to interpret the data but one thing is for sure so far - I would score much better if I were to 'trigger' 1 second earlier. I fear I have a problem between brain and trigger finger :)

Cheers

David

higginsdj wrote:As a still novice shooter I have only a vague idea how to interpret the data but one thing is for sure so far - I would score much better if I were to 'trigger' 1 second earlier. I fear I have a problem between brain and trigger finger :)

My interpretation of your above statement is that you, like many, are waiting until the sights are aligned and on target before you start the trigger. Remember that the object is to have the gun fire when you reach perfect sight alignment in your area of aim.

As an electronic trainer exercise (and then live fire test), try to start the shot earlier and finish when you reach perfection in what you see. Be careful to ensure that you don't stop, once started. Merely adjust the start point and application speed through training. After a short time, the subconscious will take over the speed of increasing pressure and all you have to concern yourself with is starting the trigger and then perfecting the sights.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Ed Hall wrote:

higginsdj wrote:As a still novice shooter I have only a vague idea how to interpret the data but one thing is for sure so far - I would score much better if I were to 'trigger' 1 second earlier. I fear I have a problem between brain and trigger finger :)

My interpretation of your above statement is that you, like many, are waiting until the sights are aligned and on target before you start the trigger. Remember that the object is to have the gun fire when you reach perfect sight alignment in your area of aim.

As an electronic trainer exercise (and then live fire test), try to start the shot earlier and finish when you reach perfection in what you see. Be careful to ensure that you don't stop, once started. Merely adjust the start point and application speed through training. After a short time, the subconscious will take over the speed of increasing pressure and all you have to concern yourself with is starting the trigger and then perfecting the sights.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Hmm, i would disagree with that. I think its more likely that it is the process of you conciously deciding to pull the trigger that is causing the shot to miss the centre. Theoretically, if you were not to pull the trigger at all, the aim etc would still be in the middle at the time when the shot would have gone off if you had pulled the trigger. This making sense so far?

I think that at the moment you're brain tells you "good sight picture, pull the trigger NOW" you're body is reacting (by either introducing or releasing tension) and that is what is causing the shot to go out of the hold. Good shot release is as much mental as it is about moving you're finger.

I suggest anyone that hasn't done already, read the article "Error number one in shooting" on the Scatt website - http://www.scatt.com/articles.htm#Error_1

Here is a quote which is what i have based my response on -

"I would like to warn against the most common mistake when analysing the problem. When a coach learns that the most favorable time for a shot is 0.3 seconds before the actual shot, he tends to recommend that the shooter make the shot a little earlier/in advance. This does not help, however, as the main cause of the error, i.e. loss of control over the muscles keeping the arms in position, is not addressed."

We are talking 1 sec here not the 0.2-0.3 reaction time usually analysed so it may be different..........

I'm not sure we're in disagreement, just looking at separate points.

The sight picture is always in motion and any action is followed by a reaction.

If you wait until you are aligned and on aim, by the time you act and recover from the reaction, you are no longer on aim and either miss or have to wait until aim is re-established. The only ways to wait are to hesitate in your application of trigger pressure or severely slow your operation, either of which are detrimental to the outcome.

If, on the other hand, you start the operation just prior to coming into perfect alignment and finish when you reach optimum, the result will be the shot happening when you reach the best moment and the traces will show everything on time.

This is not speeding up the application of the trigger or being more agressive. It is instead being confident that the alignment will occur and that the shot will happen at the proper moment. The ET traces will show coincidence of shot and peak values, resulting in 0 as the time difference for trigger application.

You haven't "triggered" quicker - you have started sooner, although to the outside observer it may "look" like you shot quicker. Instead of watching the optimum sight picture going by, you have finished the shot at that optimum moment by starting the trigger sooner in the settle.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

Tony mcg wrote:<snip>
again the question:

Where do coaches learn to not just use but get the most out of electronic trainers?

For us in the UK we have a couple of courses that I know of that train people on how to use Scatt. One is a specific course on it, another is our county coaching course. In the latter we got a fairly detailed assessment as to what each bit means. The difficult bit is therefore working out how to use that data to improve your shooters - sometimes easier than other. We're also fortunate in that a number of our senior coaches and our coach educator are good with the scatt and can therefore pass that information on.

As an aside, I do intend to summarise some of my training notes so that I can post up some of the more pertinent points.

Rob.

Ed:

100% spot on again. This is a common misconception and one that any Scatt/Rika user needs to have a very good handle on . . . the notion of "If the shot had brokenm X sooner, your score would have been Y."

O.K. fine- but what the hell does that mean exactly; in terms of what the shooter should change in order to see improvement?

Back to the core issue: What you *should* see on the trace is

1. Good approach to settle area
2. Establishment of settle
3. Arc of trace moving into sweet spot as triggering starts
4. Good triggering (eg, no change in wobble pattern as triggering occurs
5. Shot breaking in sweet spot
6. Good follow throguh

Here's the problem: the Scatt/Rika doesn't have clue as to when you start the triggering process. Therefore, the coach can only make gross assumptions about 3. above. I set my screen to show last .5s in yellow trace, and last .2s as red. Yes- I am assuming my triggering takes .5s total, of which the front .3 is recognition-reaction-signal and the last .2s is trigger kmanipulation. Reasonable assumptions for most people.

Therefore, I want my yellow/red trace to be arcing toward the sweet spot, and I want my red arc to be slow moving and tight. That way, I can assume my "Moment of Truth" behaviors are at least nominally compliant with desired.

Of course, if I see the yellow trace begin in the sweet spot, that most likely means I waited until I had perfect sight picture before dropping the hammer- A Really Bad Thing.

All of this mumbo-jumbo about the "early release statistics" are kind of a red herring or at least a simplified shortcut to what the trace will actually tell you. Based onh the same concepts of course- if your shot would have been higher had yiou triggered earlier, well, that suggests that you were waiting for the proper sight picture and triggered too late.

I prefer to peer at the actual trace for interpretation. I feel the "early shot" staistic provided is a little oversimplified.

As to the larger question, I have a big honkin opinion to offer:

If you don't understand the mechanics of the underlying shot process, and how it's *supposed* to work, the Scatt/Rika/Noptel systems won't help you one bit.

First and foremost, a "Good Coach" needs to understand the neurophysiological and psychological elements that make up the "moving parts" of the shot proces.

The athlete certainly doesn't need to understand that stuff of course at any meaningful level.

But the coach sure in hell needs to!

Steve