TargetTalk

I belong to a Rifle team south of Boston that basically shoots 1/4 course 3 position Rifle any sights on the A36 target.
I have been shooting in this league for 25+ years and there has been a steady decline in smallbore rifle so I and open for ideas.
We where tossing around the idea of adding light rifle to the competition.
for many years we shot on the A17 target and about 10+- years ago we switched to the A36.
Maybe switch back to the A17? add the A32 for light rifle Both?
Any feedback would be great.

There’s a local smallbore league near me (south-central PA) that also seems to have slowly declining levels of participation. I’m guilty as well, since I allocate my limited league time to bullseye and High Power.

The obvious answer is that you need to be bringing juniors into the fold. If you can’t bring juniors into the sport, the league will die as the older shooters do.

That does have some implications:
1. A-17 versus A-36: Thinking back to my own youth, I think it would have been much less fun to have started on the A-36 rather than the A-17. If it’s not fun, kids won’t stick with it.

2. A light rifle program? Aside from the obvious cost issue for juniors (and their parents), the 11 – 13 year olds who are the future of the sport might not be able to physically handle a larger rifle. It doesn’t have to be a separate “light rifle” course of fire, but it’s important to have a system where a novice with a light rifle has a chance. If you’ve got enough shooters (or potential shooters) you can have a either a class system or at least 2 separate groups.

3. 2-tiered league? Classes? A 12 year old with a Mossberg 44 with iron sights competing against an adult with an Anschutz with a Unertl 20X scope? The 12 year old will tire of that real quickly. When I was a teenager I shot in the National Capital Area Junior Rifle League (shot in the basement of NRA headquarters in DC). There were (I think) 9 different classes, ranging from prone-only on the A-17 to 2 classes of 3P on the A-36. Kids could compete against other kids of the same basic skill level. The same thing could be applied to a mix of adults and kids.



Finally, our local bullseye and smallbore leagues rotate locations. In one week, Team A shoots at Team B, Team C shoots at Team D, etc. The next week the pairings and locations are rotated. If there’s a location with a large enough range would it make sense to always have everyone shoot at the same range? Going to the same place every week makes it more of a habit, and it also becomes more of a social event since all of the clubs are there. There’s also a better chance that your newer shooters will be able to shoot head-to-head against other newer shooters. Also, if the location is relatively central that avoids the situation where some people have to make really long trips (I occasionally have to drive 60+ minutes for bullseye league, which makes me less likely to participate). The problem with the “one location” system is that the competitions become all day events where you need 6 or 7 relays to accommodate all of the shooters.

switch to cowboy action, IPSC or tactical rifle!

ALL the classic, honest, serious precision marksmanship events are in decline EVERYWHERE.... I've spent 10 or 12 years trying to get more folks into High Power, Smallbore, Olympic, Bullseye..... a coupla weeks ago I spent two 12 hour days at a "shooter's expo" held on our big public range letting several hundred folks try AR-15 & M1 at a high power target (arguably the most "attractive" of the precision disciplines), every one of them got a flyer about competition shooting and a quick explaination of the sport, an invite to come shoot at any of the 3 clubs and an offer of loaner equipment.... I bet during the course of the coming year, we will see..... maybe..... ZERO of them show up for a match (this is our 4th year doing this, I'm just plotting the trend)

here in AZ we have 100,000 put in for Elk hunting tags, 50,000 will attend a gun show (100,000 expected next week for the NRA shot), they can get 100 folks to come to an IPSC match, 60 for cowboy, 25 for high power, maybe 10 for bullseye, 3 for international! (there are 3 million+ people within an hour's drive of any of our ranges). I believe the person with the potential to be the best shooter in the world is either watching TV and playing video games, or if he or she got to get near guns is out shooting rocks in the desert and has never heard of competition shooting.... those are the folks I've been trying to reach.

the more complex or demanding a sport/hobby is, the fewer people will show an interest and its only declining.

Other hobbies, such as amateur radio, have the same issue.

shoot good

Poole

Bill hit the nail on the head. If it is not easy, people (in the United States) will not be very interested in doing it.

I would suggest asking every friend that you know and invite them to come shoot.

Come see us in the woods!

Jack

Unfortunately position smallbore does require a load of equipment that any shooter will eventually have to lay out the considerable cash. The gray hairs rule in this event and youth programs are not achieving high turn-outs as their attention span is limited with so much else out there. This is the typical lament with youth programs today. Watch any family of three or more and the kids have their eyes on the cell phone and are continuously texting---literally and figuratively "out of the world." In New York State we run a Sporterifle Program, with fairly good turnouts for many years. It is open to Adults and includes the Juniors group. It's similar to NRA Light Rifle and uses the A-32 target, scope or irons and a wt. limit of 7.5 lbs, to eliminate target rifles, nonetheless their is some expensive being used out there. Most of us use rifles in the under $400 class, it is a 30 shot match with a time limit of 10 minutes/target. The A-32 target has five bulls, one sighter and four record targets--2 shots per record bull, on three targets. We shoot once a week from September to April (with time out for Thanksgiving & Christmas. There 6-8 or more shooters per team and you can field more than one team if desired. My club is essentially a Bullseye pistol club and fields ~8 teams in two leagues, as well as the NYS International Pistol Postal League for Free Pistol and Air Pistol with many competitors in both events. So the Sporterifle League gets guys out for another match with the .22 Rifles the have laying about unused for the most part. Just an example of kicking up the interest, it was not an easy sell and we failed our first time out but now we are hot to go. "Doc"

This is great!!
alot of great ideas here.
Keep them comming...
I plan on attending a League meeting in a week or so about the plan for the fall season and hopefully we can get someting running that is has worked for others.

Thanks
LD

Try to maximize the number of ways a shooter can help the team. In our league the top 5 cards in each position count toward the team aggregate score. A tyro who has learned to shoot prone can help the team, even if his/her standing and kneeling scores are not so strong. Same for older shooters who are not as steady as they once were. One of my early mentors could not shoot prone due to a bone fusion in his neck, but he could shoot nearly clean in kneeling. He contributed to the team until he went to that big range in the sky.

One other thing: be sure to make the competition fun. Yes, it's more fun when you win, but especially in league shooting the social aspect must be honored. Snacks, banter, good-natured kidding and side wagers are all fine. Single-minded focus is better saved for training and sanctioned matches.

The more recognition and "awards" you can give out, the better. I put awards in quotes because you don't have to give something away for everything. You could have high newbie, youngest competitor, old fart award, youngsters vs old fart teams (2/4 youngest vs 2/4 oldest), high centershot/X count, high prone/standing/kneeling/sitting target. Same thing at the end of the league, high position average, perfect attendance awards. You can make nice certificates on your printer for $0.50 each. A little cut on a plastic "marble" base with engraving is $10.

Basically, the more reasons you give people to be there and compete, the more they'll come back.

Hey Little_Doodie- I shoot in the league you speak of so I'm sure I know you.

I have been shooting in the league for the last 2 years, but I did shoot a few times in the league in the early 90s and the participation levels did seem higher.

One thing I notice about the league is we have very few Juniors. This might be due in part to our 8pm start time...I imagine that conflicts with homework and bedtime for a lot younger shooters. Even a 7pm start time might increase Junior participation but we want to be careful not to conflict with our current adult shooter's work/commute time. That said, you'd be surprised at how many adults show up for a 6pm start time for my prone matches in the summer. ;)

I realize that there are some other shooting disciplines that are really taking off but I don't see that as a reason to abandon our sport. The cost of equipment is a big barrier. But I think you'll find people are spending just as much money in the other disciplines. I used to think that Light Rifle was a great idea...level the playing field, keep cost down, bring in shooters. Then I attended a Light Rifle match at a local club a realized that people are spending huge amounts of money to build super accurate, custom light rifles...same problems. One idea to reduce the equipment barrier would be to have the junior program at each club share some of their equipment with their senior counterparts (obviously some of the equipment would be too small).

I'm a firm believer that changing to easier targets doesn't increase participation, but some disagree. The NRA is dropping the A-36 in 2010 in favor of the HARDER USA50 target. I'm not sure that will effect our league but the RI league is a NRA registered league so I imagine they will have to switch to the harder target if they wish to keep the league NRA registered.

A note on the USA 50 being "harder" than the A-36:

Yes it is mathematically smaller, but it is not completely correct to call it harder. It is important around anyone not already committed to the sport to not make it see hard. On top of that, since college shooting changed to the USA 50 4 or so years ago, smallbore scores have actually gone up. The same thing happened a while back when the air rifle target was reduced a bit.

On top of that, no matter what the target dimensions, the better shooter will still win.

danholmes wrote:Hey Little_Doodie- I shoot in the league you speak of so I'm sure I know you.

I most definately know you and I am sure you know me.
I one of the three that shoot for Ames.
I will send you and e-mail about some of the ideas that will be at the league meeting.
Believe me I do not want to abandon the A36 or even dislike the USA target in fact I was one of the people who pushed to get it to replace the A17.
Basically I am looking for ideas so we can add people for our league.
We have lost 3 teams and many shooters in the last 10 +- years and I am hoping to stop the bleeding.
I wish the Junior program would be the answer but I have been coaching it for years and the interest has been dwindeling some.
I don't know all the answers but I am hoping I can get some ideas.

There are two F&G clubs which formed a summer biathlon league. The Pemigiwasette F&G (NH) along with the Harvard Sportsman's Club (MA) each host 3 events, one each month from June through August, and the results are impressive. The vast majority of attendees are not from the group of active shooters. Most never touched a firearm prior to attending these events. Several have purchased rifles and the associated shooting gear for biathlon. One kid, 11 when he attended his first event, is now 13 and being sought after by the National coaching staff. Just a guess, but I'd say maybe 100 people have been introduced to shooting sports. Some stick ith biathlon while others have migrated to silhouette to hone thier offhand skills. The biathletes who are more serious also attend the prone matches and do pretty well.

The Freds (each club has a Fred who heads up the matches) have done a fantastic job advertising the events at running and outdoor shops, bicycle shops (there is one mt. bike event), ski shops and other venues not associated with shooting.

Biathlon is a soft entry into shooting sports. A bolt action .22 which are pretty user friendly rifles. Quiet with a very small recoil. There are the match events run as USBA rule events and then there is the novice event where the idea is to be safe and have fun in a pseudo competitive environment.

Is biathlon what you're looking for? Don't know and the point of this post is really just praising the Freds for thinking outside of what they know with the intent of building the shooting sports at their clubs.

Bob R, you say "Watch any family of three or more and the kids have their eyes on the cell phone and are continuously texting---literally and figuratively "out of the world."
The only thing I would add to this is...don't blame the kids!!
Every time I see children absorbed in their video games/phones I usally see parents with a cell phone you can't pry from their ears...or parents who are constantly checking their emails incase something 'important' come us.
Come Friday afternoon I am offline and the cell gets left at home whenever possible.
Weekends are family/kid time in my household. I have an 8 year old who can't wait to head out Sundays to our favorite shooting spot with his Red Ryder. And during the week he's getting pretty darn proficient with my Avanti 853.
I challenge any shooter, whether competitive or otherwise. If you don't have kids yourself, find a friend who does and offer to spend 1/2 an hour a week introducing them to shooting sports.

One thing I am noticing with a Junior program I run is the age of new shooters seems to be going down.
Back when I was a Junior 25+ years ago the average new Junior was 12-13+ but I have kids 9, 10 and even a 8 YO girl that is shooting for qualifications.
At first I thought this was not a real good idea but now I am thinking its a better idea because it seems alot of 12-15 YO already have alot of sports they are involved in.
Getum early keepum longer?

The junior club I am in has around 30 students each year. I started out in it when I was 12 because my dad wanted me to, now I am 19 and I am an instructor and my dad is the president. Luckily for our area we haven't been losing shooters. Infact over the past 10 years the club has been gaining shooters.

Starting the kids out young can be good and bad. If they do not have a real big interest in and their parents don't encourage them to go they may not continue after the first year or two because at that age it takes longer to develop the skill. On the other hand their parents can more easily talk them into staying in the program and they will eventually get better at shooting and will actually want to stay.

Now with older kids they usually learn much quicker so if they have even a small interest at first, after a year they will be shooting much better and that may cause them to be more interested and keep coming year after year. But if they are slower leaners they may quit coming because they are not shooting very high scores and it's not fun to them.

I find that is the biggest problem we have in getting shooters. We may have lots of kids every year but how many are going to keep coming year after year. Since I have been in the club we've had probably close to 100 different kids. Only around 10 of them seem to have a real interest and I bet maybe at the most 4 or 5 will be there after they are my age (19).

I think whether they start young or older the big thing is to encourage them to keep at it and to stay. If you can keep them in long enough to where they are shooting real good scores then it will depend on if they enjoy it they will stay for the long haul. If they still don't have a huge interest in it, they wont stay and there isn't much you can do.

This is coming from someone way out on the edge of competitively shooting air rifle and smallbore. However, I do shoot and teach target archery.

Make it cheap, make it fun, get both kids and parents involved.

Make it cheap by setting up leagues for off-shelf sport guns, i.e. Remington 597, Marlin (don't know the model), Ruger 10/22. For airguns, the off-shelf Gamo or others that can be bought at Walmart for under $150. Put in one restriction that open sights must be used.

Make it fun by letting people try shooting for no cost (I mean maybe $5 for a 2- hour basic training session). The club should provide rifles and ammo for people to try for a while, while working on their basic skills. At some point, either the kids will drop out, or want to move up to a real target rifle. Kids with skills should be encouraged to get their own equipment.

Keep it fun by changing up the games once in a while. Don't just stay with one boring game week after week. If you shoot 10M paper, set up plastic dinosaurs one day as silouhettes. Let air gunners try small bore, and the other way around. Make up fun games, break a balloon to win a prize, closest to X wins a special holiday surprise, etc.

Invite the parents to try shooting. Some won't but many will. Involved parents keep their kids involved too.

So where do you find these new shooters? Hey, here's a novel idea: ADVERTISE! I have NEVER seen any invitation to join ANY shooting club in my county, and there are at least 4 within the county that I'm aware of, plus one pistol club just over the border in the next county. Place an advertisement in your local newspaper or shopper paper. Post fliers, etc. Invite the local paper to write a local interest story about your club, and make sure you say you are looking for new members. But let people know you are out there and want members to join. Just be sure you are ready to receive the new people with open arms when they come in, but that's for a different post.

Every fall a few weeks before registration we always put an ad in the paper announcing when registration starts. I'm not sure how many sign up because of it. It's a very small little box as it's too expensive and our town doesn't support us very well.


One nice thing we do is in around April we have a Family shoot where the kids and one of their parents will shoot a target together. It's always really cool to see the results. It's amazing how good grouping they can get together. When I was younger me and my dad did it and we would have grouping with our shots touching each other or hole on hole.

At the end of the year after the Junior Provincial Championship we have our 'Wind Up' at one of the instructors house. He has a nice big yard our of town. We have a BBQ hand out awards and then do some clay shooting and maybe some fullbore shooting as well.

Here in Nebraska, a state that many of you have either driven through or flew over, we have a High School Trap Program.

This year, the last week end in April, a State Shoot was held in Doniphan NE.

It drew just over 1,800 + entries over the 4 day event.

Not that I’m switching from rifle to shotgun. Although I do enjoy being with and shooting trap along side my granddaughter.

I think the CMP .22 Sporter Rifle program could be a stepping stone to NRA smallbore.

I do not agree with the emphasis on "juniors" recruitment into precision shooting sports. I am not saying it shouldn't be done, but...

I think there are a lot more 30 somethings (like myself) who are a much better group to go after. Especially professionals. Look at all the $$$ people in my age group are shelling out to yoga instructors, therapists and the anti-depressant pharmaceutical companies.

Is precision shooting not the same thing? ;-) Especially for young professionals with stressful lives, an air pistol and rifle are great relief. Its something young couples can both do. They also have the money for the sport, and will soon have kids old enough to start as well.

melchloboo wrote: Look at all the $$$ people in my age group are shelling out to yoga instructors, therapists and the anti-depressant pharmaceutical companies.

You may want to rethink this comment. You want to give a gun to whom?
Somebody on anti-depressant drug and under the therapist's care?