TargetTalk

Hi all, have a question here.

was wondering whether which training method is more effective:

1) frequent training lessons, with limited shots (60-80 shots, 5-7 days/week)

or

2) Less frequent training lessons, with unlimited shots (1-3 days /week)

in the past, i was shooting some 5-6 days a week, and it did not show any significant improvement in the quality of my training sessions. training was always set in a mock competition stimulation. training was routine, not to mention monotonous, where i shoot 80 shots, with 10 shots on each card.
after a year of training, i see that my scores stagnate, and the training sessions started to aggravate problems such as chicken finger.

i then took a 6 month break from shooting, and now follow an irregular training schedule, where i train once or twice a week.
even my training program is irregular in nature. sometimes i focus on groupings, and some other days i focus on scoring. depending on mood, i may shoot as little as 30 shots, or as many as 150 shots.

the results of my match scores 3 months after i resume training has been very promising, out-doing my earlier performance when i was engaged in intensed training sessions. i no longer come up with any competition plans, and shoot in whatever manner i fancied.
shooting had become more carefree and enjoyable ever since then.

please share your comments and experiences, thanks.

donthc wrote:training was always set in a mock competition stimulation. training was routine, not to mention monotonous, where i shoot 80 shots, with 10 shots on each card. after a year of training, i see that my scores stagnate...

You have described what I refer to as "practice" instead of training. I further consider practice as a way to ingrain a particular trait. This promotes stagnation. If you practice doing the same thing, why would you expect a different outcome?

You should pursue quality over quantity and vary your focus to improving a particular area with each session. And, of course, the more entertaining you can make the sessions, the better.

One important factor is to let your subconscious know what you want to achieve. If you just go to a session to shoot, does your subconscious know you want tens, or does it just know you want holes?

Take Care,
Ed Hall
Air Force Shooting Homepage
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

i guess previously i was training under the idea that practice makes perfect. if i can improve during my training/practice sessions, no doubt i would see an improvement in my competitions. but this does not seem to be the case.

so in any case, would you prefer frequent training sessions? i was feeling kind of burn-out then.

There seem to be (at least) two phases that folks go through.

The first is the steep learning curve of developing the fundamentals and the muscles to just shoot pretty well. Without a lot of regular shooting and thinking about what works and what doesn't, this phase can last a really long time. I'd analogize it to learning how to drive. There's no point in thinking about driving NASCAR before you can't even hold the road really well and it just takes time doing it to learn how. If you drive a lot every day, you learn how to drive well enough pretty quickly.

The next phase is going beyond shooting just pretty well. I think you need to practice enough to avoid losing the skills you've already developed, but the routine has got to be different to the one that got you where you are. Like the driving analogy, just driving to work every day, no matter how well you do it, isn't going to make you an expert race car driver. Pushing yourself beyond what you think your limits are and mixing things up by mastering other disciplines and/or techniques can be what distinguishes you from the rest of the pack. It does seem to take an awfully long time.

"What Ed Said."

You will find several detailed threads on the difference between "Practice" and "Training" in this forum.

You will also find great ieas for how to convert from practice to training; and how to organize and focus your training efforts.

donthc wrote:i guess previously i was training under the idea that practice makes perfect. if i can improve during my training/practice sessions, no doubt i would see an improvement in my competitions. but this does not seem to be the case.

You are correct, that is not the case. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Now, with that said, if you are still in the initial phases of your traininig, I would recommend frequent training sessions. Since getting my new coach I currently train 5 days per week for 2 hours per day. Some days, that may just be all dry firing although I do vary up the drills. Some days it may be group shooting at the white side of the target, and some days it may be several rounds of timed shot release (e.g. 30 minutes at the black of the target). there is so much that you can do to train that it should not get boring although you are correct, you can feel run down. It just depends upon what you eventually wish to achieve. Just my thoughts.

Paul

one thing i observed is that i do not like having a coach deciding for me what i am going to do for every training sessions.

to me, i think that having a coach means that i had not only myself answerable to anything, with me having to also account to my coach for any hiccups in training/match.

training w/o a coach had made me feel more liberated, that no one else is responsible for my performance, and i am accountable only to myself. i no longer have to live up to the expectations of someone else.

I am with you on that. Sometimes it is tough to go through the daily grind that a coach has setup for you, I know it wears me out. As I said though, it all depends upon where you eventually want to wind up. I know very few athletes at the top levels that are not coached and while I may never make it to that level, I want to have as much help as possible along the way.

Best of luck with your training. Maybe we will see you down here in Texas for some tournaments!

Paul

Looks like you tricked yourself into higher quality training over the large quantity you could no longer do.

Since I finished up shooting in college, I have rarely had the chance to practice. I shoot air rifle maybe once a month outside of matches, and never practice smallbore. Yet my smallbore scores have if anything gone up. I finished college 565ish smallbore and air. My air scores are about the same and I'm now a 570+ smallbore shooter (last full course at 50ft was 1149).

I also know a lot of prone shooters who never practice yet still remain at the top of the game year after year.

It's amazing what you can do when you really put your mind and 100% effort into what you are doing.

Training 5+ days per week will not necessarilly make you a World Champion, but it's extremely unlikely that you'll get there without it.

The quantity, quality and intensity of the training you need will depend on your aspirations.

I have been fortunate to see two extraordinary smallbore shooters come out of my league. One, a younger man, went to a collegiate shooting program and from there to the USAMTU. The other, several years older, has family responsibilities and is a true amateur (i.e.; one who practices a discipline for the love of it.) Both train with dedication, but the civilian cannot hope to train as much as the younger man; consequently, the younger has competed on the world stage while the elder is a consistant top-10 competitor in the civilian category at national (United States) matches.

I have no doubt that the elder shooter could be a world-class competitor, but without the training resources available to full-time shooters at the USAMTU or OTC it probably will not happen. Bottom line: To compete at the world level, you need to be (or at least have been) a full-time shooter. That doesn't mean that my civilian friend isn't great: In fact, his skills have lifted the scores of the entire league as we try to match him. When we get close though, he just steps it up and puts us back in our place!

Excellent points.

You should be trying to maximize the benefit you receive from your training effort . . . whether yoiu train for 10 minutes a day or ten hours.

Actually, on second thought, if you are just "capping rounds" (flailing away with no purpose or direction) then you are much better off if you *don't* put in very much time at it . . .

Steve Swartz

I just read Steves post, walked into the living room and my wife commented " whats thats look for" . I didnt even know I had a look. I replied to her" ok I ve got to go reply " In 2007 I obtained my free pistol, took it out in the orchard and started shooting it. Whats sight alinement? trigger control whats that? and oh yes dry fire ! I have no idea what that is. Targettalk never heard of it. Looking for something that could help me figure this new sport out I found targettalk. I didnt even know where to buy targets. One of the first answers to my questions was giving to me by Steve S.. That answer came in the form of a question." how often do you shoot at a blank wall" My answer was "Never" Then I got chewed out. All is forgiven , I am no longer mad at Steve ( sometimes we just disagree) In that chewing out I recall the words that r burned into my memory. " YOU ARE JUST FRAILING AWAY " motivating words they where! After 6 weeks I shoot 533 in my first free pistol match. I was told I needed a AP. " Whats a AP I asked" I bought one with one thing on my mind! "FRAILING AWAY" I found out i could shoot AP at nationals ( my second match) against non other than Steve himself. I really have never meet the man but! thats a BIG BUTT ! We did speak once....... Match starts and I notice everyone is dry firing without releaseing air " How do they do that?" I had no idea and was too afraid to pull my trigger. Time was almost up so I did finally pull my trigger," BANG" Now they want to see a hand, " what the hell do they mean ( see a hand ) " Im told by the guy next to me to raise my hand . " you got to be nuts " *uck I raise my hand. Judge comes down, ask me what happen ,I tell him I didnt know how the gun worked that I had only shot it down my hall way . he replied " Why are you here?" Then asked if someone could show me how my gun worked. Well two lanes down a man said he could , Guess who it was ? Steve (we meet) sort of. Well after day one Steve was ahead of me but I did manage to beat him (thanks to all my frailing away) I never dry fired once! Then I found out the bad news ! At the awards they called up the Senior national champion, My name was called, I called out" im not a senior" I learned otherwise (Im old now but dont get any discounts) The Judge who gave me the warning later came up to me and said " Now I know why you are here"...Now I just keep Frailing away and if Steve ever beats me I will buy him a pick up full of beer! 2 months to nationals!! anyone out there have anything to say, I need some motivating words to get me going. Frailing has already been taken, numbnuts is to vulger, *hole isnt allowed, Steve Im counting on you! you r loaded with BIG words!!!! AND YOU BETTER SHOW UP TO NATIONALS......................David

Dave, I suggest you don't spend one second more on Target Talk. You may learn why you can't shoot well without dryfiring or that you can't shoot 533 free in 6 weeks!!

Good luck at Nationals, you "Orchard Over Achiever"!

Ben

David:

Not entirely sure what to make of your post; but here's a few thoughts.

1. I'll let you off easy with Shiner Blonde or Lonestar (and make that an F-150 longbed, not a little Toyota shortbed sized load). Oh and don't count the ice!

2. Did I show you how to work the gun?

3. Geeze Louise did I really spell it "frailing?" Meant "flailing" in any case.

Steve Swartz



General Comment (not directed at David, but generally to the thread as a whole)- I certainly don't mind the cannon fodder guys- happy plinkers- I will eventually become one myself (if I am not already there!). But the following was beaten into me when I started shooting competitively about 10 years ago:

"Don't complain about not making progress if you aren't going to listen to anyone else's advice."

The point was that there is a HUGE difference between TRAINING and PRACTICE. If all you have the time or inclination for is PRACTICE, then great! You are a plinker and should be happy with what you get out of your effort.

But

Don't be surprised or disappointed if your "PRACTICE" results don't live up to your "TRAINING" expectations!

Still trying to puzzle out David's post . . .

I tried to make a long story short. I also tried not to insult you. Im sure you didnt fully understand my questions 2 years ago and thats why I got the response that I recieved from you (again no hard feelings but you did motivate me for awhile)You gave me a goal....THANKS!!!!!!. It was just a funny story( funny to me) with one point. . My point was . Flailing to some can be training to others. I could never train the way you do. My head wouldnt be in it.( I would not enjoy it in other words) Im not going to shoot if I dont enjoy it. If I didnt improve I would stop shooting. To each his own ! We all have an opinion just remember its just your opinion. TO ALL NEW SHOOTERS READING TARGETTALK REMEMBER "DO WHAT FEELS RIGHT FOR YOU. WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ! but remember to do what Steve told me to do " DRY FIRE AGAINST A BLANK WALL" ........David.

Oh! one more thing , I did lose all respect for you when you mentioned those 2 beers and yes you actually showed me how to dryfire my gun... I dont recall how you spelled Flailing , I actually spelled it wrong again in my last post but spotted my mistake . I dont think you have ever missspellled a word........David

To dthe orginal question of training intensity: I found this fellows reesarch interesting on the question of intensity. My understanding of his concepts are that the amount of time spent in practise was not important. What was important was the amount of time spent involved in intense practise. I tend to think of this as what Mr. Ed Hall calls training versus practise.

http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html

Extended, long sessions or shorter more frequent sessions may not be the real comparison. How do you acheive the intensity level, the mental focus, that very high level and how long can you maintain that level may be the real critical factor. As Mr. Hall suggests, having specific goals, training plans, a purpose to the training most probably takes us to that higher level.

I sugest that if you dont train with real intensity you will never find the level of intensity in competition that you will need to win the match. Please excuse the rambling into psycoligy. I do try to avoid it as much as possible. I like the Quote in the esays on pithy sayings about shooting, especially the one that states " Shut UP and Shoot' Good Shooting Bill Horton