TargetTalk

List,

I have always shot SK Pistol match for 50 yards and Lapua Rapid Pistol (now OSP) for the 25 yard RF and TF in my Bullseye shooting. I have never questioned the ammo as I always shoot in the masters or high master with this combination (slow fire in the mid to high 90's and TF and RF mid to perfect scores), until one of the member at my club was expermenting his High Standard for the best ammo. So out of curiousity, I tried several different types of ammo, from cheap to expensive just to see which shoots best, and maybe it will help me gain a point or two that can carry to the center fire/.45 match.

Anyway, I tested them today and as you will see, some interesting result. Of mention, the temperature today was a typical Sunny FL weather of 86 degrees, mild humidity, however I did have a good head wind that gusts between 10-15 knots. Also too, I had a little bit of coffee (just so enough that any shakes will be very minor). Here is the findings as follows from best to worst (10 shot groups shot from a sandbag):

RWS Rifle Match: 1.264"
Lapua Pistol King: 1.327"
SK Match: 1.338"
SK Pistol Match: 1.817"
SK Rifle Match: 1.977"
Lapua Midas+ (new stuff): 1.989"
Lapua Center X: 2.245"
RWS Target Rifle: 2.518"
RWS R-50: 2.676

So now, the interesting part if you haven't noticed is that the four worst performing (except the RWS Target Rifle) happen to be the most expensive of the lot. It isn't all that bad considering I am usually not fond of paying more than $10 for a box of .22, but I just thought it was odd why the best stuff performed the worse when one would assume the opposite. Maybe the best explination is the latter four were really meant for rifle shooting?

Anyway, just wanted to share and hopefully this will also give a new owner of a Pardini a clue where to start...

Semper Fi,
David

Just curious if anyone has made this observation on their Pardinis or any other makes like Hammerli?

Some time ago (12 - 18 months) somebody posted a link to a spreadsheet that listed group sizes achieved by a variety of pistols using a variety of brands of .22LR ammunition. The pistols were mechanically clamped to achieve the best possible results.

I made some notes regarding the results for the Pardinis and the group size with different brands of ammunition ranged from 13mm - 30mm. Perhaps the person who posted the link will read this and post the link again, I have done a search for the article and have been unable to locate it.

The results were quite interesting, the test involved something like 10 - 12 different target pistols and 20 - 25 brands of ammunition.

Dazza, I think this is what you were looking for

Thanks Fred that is exactly what I was referring to. I owe you one.

usmcmba wrote:RWS Rifle Match: 1.264"
Lapua Pistol King: 1.327"
SK Match: 1.338"
SK Pistol Match: 1.817"
SK Rifle Match: 1.977"
Lapua Midas+ (new stuff): 1.989"
Lapua Center X: 2.245"
RWS Target Rifle: 2.518"
RWS R-50: 2.676

I suggest you try a more reliable testing method.

All these groups sizes are way bigger than what is possible with this pistol and any of those ammos.

Both the Pardini SPs that i've owned would shoot under 1 inch with even the cheapest ammo. My testing was done with the barrel clamped in a machine vise which was bolted to a concrete plinth.

Best results for me were with Lapua Pistol King. 10 shots in 12mm For training I use Lapua super club which comes in at 15mm. Even Norinco and the Mexican CI which was about 20 years old shot under 25mm.

j-team wrote:...I suggest you try a more reliable testing method.
All these groups sizes are way bigger than what is possible with this pistol and any of those ammos.
Both the Pardini SPs that i've owned would shoot under 1 inch with even the cheapest ammo. My testing was done with the barrel clamped in a machine vise which was bolted to a concrete plinth...

Hmmm!
While the groups reported by usmcmba are not 'good', given that usmcmba was using a sandbag I did not find them to be unexpected (i.e. exceptionally 'bad').
They are more-or-less in line with the grouping ability of this range of ammunition brands that we have achieved in a Pardini using a Ransom rest at 25m

If jteam can get "under 1 inch with even the cheapest ammo" at 25m for 10-shot groups, hang on to those pistols.

Extending the thread, I am reminded of the difference between the best 5-shot groups, the worst 5-shot groups, and the fliers 'discovered' when firing 100-shot groups with the same batch of .32 ammunition in a given pistol (made me keep a .38 in the collection, even though I use a .32 GSP 99% of the time for ISSF CF events).

Spencer

Spencer

I wouldn't expect a modern match .22 pistol to shoot much worse than those groups I quoted.

A ramsom rest isn't much better than a sandbag in my opinion.

Here is some Lapua super club groups from my old Pardini, my wife's SP20 and my Toz 35 (at 50m)

I don't have the Lapua Pistol King groups but they are better, as you would expect at twice the price!

j-team wrote:...A ramsom rest isn't much better than a sandbag in my opinion...

We have been wondering about the Ransom and pondering making something better. Barrel clamping would not be feasible with some semi-autos.

Spencer

Spencer wrote:Barrel clamping would not be feasible with some semi-autos.

Spencer

Yes you are right. Walther GSP, Pardini and Hammerli SP20 or 208 were easy as you could clamp the barrel. When I had an IZH35 I had to remove the grips and try holding it by the frame. The groups always strung vertically which I put down to it moving in the vice.

j-team wrote:...The groups always strung vertically which I put down to it moving in the vice.

This is the effect we are getting with an initial attempt with 'clamped frames as opposed to the Ransom, but may be due to flexing of the base structure.
Spencer

Here's some scans of the original I found on a French target forum.



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Group size in mm/ Muzzle Velocity m/sec

Bottom of table is pistol's avg group size with all ammo tested.

I shoot my tests at 50yds. from a Ransom Rest (supplied by my club). I shoot ten shot groups and then retest ammo that has shot expecially well, narrowing the field immediately. I'm only interested in the accurate stuff.

I couldn't possibly hope to shoot as well or consistently off sandbags, especially when getting tired.

It's very gratifying when I find cheaper ammo that does as well or better than the most expensive stuff. It cut the price of my Free Pistol ammo in half and makes me far more confident in target "feedback".

I once batch tested seventeen lots of TENEX at the Eley Customer Range, in three Hammerli pistols.

There was no batch to batch / gun to gun correlation. The results of testing a particular lot of ammunition in one gun simply were inapplicable to any other gun.

Moral of the Story: One persons results from testing ammunition his gun may be interesting, but those results have no significance for you and your gun.

Note that after Bill Demarest shot his Free Pistol World Record, using free ammo given to him at the Milan World Cup ... they tested his Toz at the Olympic Training Center with a variety of ammo ... obviously the good stuff one would expect a World Cup competitor to use plus the freebie ammo. Turns out Bill's World Record was shot with the worst grouping ammo! Also, Bill's Toz was a loaner from USA Shooting, that he was allowed to custom fit to his hand. The ugliest TOZ I've ever seen.

Just goes to show. Forget the testing and just keep practicing!!! :-)

The year Bill shot his World Record, he shot 20,000 rounds of Free Pistol and another 20,000 rounds of Air Pistol. This involved getting up at something like 4 AM, so he could get his real job over with and then get to the range. Almost sounds like any of us could do it, if we just had that type of discipline!

btw. Bill worked for a huge defense contractor ... that wouldn't give him time off to represent the US of A at the Sydney Olympics (after having set that World Record). Bill had to use vacation time. :-(

Bill with his loaner World Record shooting TOZ


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GOVTMODEL wrote:I once batch tested seventeen lots of TENEX at the Eley Customer Range, in three Hammerli pistols.

There was no batch to batch / gun to gun correlation. The results of testing a particular lot of ammunition in one gun simply were inapplicable to any other gun.

The precise reason we batch test. :)

the same runs for air guns and pellets as well.

Julian