TargetTalk

Anybody have any opinions about this? My club has been taken over by the "defensive" pistol crowd who want to be able to destroy the indoor range at will. They recently de-listed A-P as a club discipline presumably for insufficient participation, and in a display of "we did it because we can" they shot up and destroyed A-P target backers which were never built to stop bullets - a blatant safety violation but no witnesses. With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

had-it-up-to-here wrote:Anybody have any opinions about this? My club has been taken over by the "defensive" pistol crowd who want to be able to destroy the indoor range at will. They recently de-listed A-P as a club discipline presumably for insufficient participation, and in a display of "we did it because we can" they shot up and destroyed A-P target backers which were never built to stop bullets - a blatant safety violation but no witnesses. With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

Unfortunately the best I have for you is to find another club.

Form your own club and rent/borrow/build a range - perhaps inside of a leased metal building, warehouse, garage or other unused commercial building. A safe AP range is not rocket science to build and it need not break the bank either. I have seen them set in school classrooms.

Although I shoot powder guns, I cannot say I take a lot of pleasure from the company of the new crop of "defensive" pistol shooters. So I do not participate with them or hang with them. My social choice.

I do, however, carry a concealed pistol most of the time - so don't get me wrong on this. Each has their place.

I just feel that the two activities are better off apart from each other.

You might get some ideas by looking at this design:
http://www.crosman.com/site/catalog/crosman/ranges

I agree that finding another club may be the easiest way to continue to shoot. My club is dominated by action shooters. Nobody even knows what a smallbore target rifle is. I got all excited one time when a member said he bought a new "target" rifle, it was a Ruger 10/22 with a scope.... Anyways, education in regards to the precision sports is part of the deal we must continue to do. Start a junior program and bring in some young shooters. That is a great way to gain some respect in the club. If your club is like mine or lots of others I've been to the average age is 45+. A junior program and approved matches is one way to make people aware that there is more to the shooting sports than just plinking.

Rick

We need more information. How big is your club (members and facilities); indoor/ outdoor/ both?

My club combines an indoor AP and Archery facility in the basement. The AP and Archery people get along pretty well. We store our backers in the same room, away from everything else and respect each others stuff. Archery generally uses the facility Wednesday nights and Sunday during the day. AP sets up Saturday and runs 10 Meter International, and Silhouette. Neither the "Bang & Clang" or the Skeet/Trap Nazis really even know we exist.

You don't need an indoor "range" for AP. Is there somewhere - anywhere - in your club you can get 10 meters to shoot? Fix it up with decent lights and you're in business.

had-it-up-to-here wrote:Anybody have any opinions about this? My club has been taken over by the "defensive" pistol crowd who want to be able to destroy the indoor range at will. They recently de-listed A-P as a club discipline presumably for insufficient participation, and in a display of "we did it because we can" they shot up and destroyed A-P target backers which were never built to stop bullets - a blatant safety violation but no witnesses. With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

Is the club a 501C nonprofit organization? If so, they had better be careful about how and who they kick or prevent from joining the club. There probably would be legal grounds that could cost them the club.

had-it-up-to-here wrote:Anybody have any opinions about this? My club has been taken over by the "defensive" pistol crowd who want to be able to destroy the indoor range at will. They recently de-listed A-P as a club discipline presumably for insufficient participation, and in a display of "we did it because we can" they shot up and destroyed A-P target backers which were never built to stop bullets - a blatant safety violation but no witnesses. With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

Get yourself on the committee and make sure things are set up fairly. There's loads of clubs where mixed rifle and pistol disciplines co-exist quite happily so there's no reason why yours shouldn't be the same.

Rob.

Ditto all comments so far- most clubs have formal charters and a board of governors who are elected to ensure the charter is being followed, and to facilitate the process of amending the charter when necessary.

Get smart about how your club is managed. The club I belong to is dominated by shotgunners- they have all the money and most of the active membership. However, the rest of us in the minority are more "politically" active in the management of the club than the majority.

Oh yeah read "The Prince" by Machiavelli and maybe "The Art Of War" by Sun Tzu . . . =8^)

Steve Swartz

I am not going to sign in on this reply for fear of "badmouthing" some of the people in my club. We too seem to have a problem with interdisciplinary infighting. It seems that the shotgun folks and the rifle/pistol folks always just barely tolerate each other. The action pistol folks want to shoot their events and practice on the indoor range (in shooting orientations that the range was not designed for) but heaven forbid they ever do any maintenance on the range.

Only about 5% of the total membership does 95% of the work at the club. This got so bad that we now require 4 hours of "sweat equity" before one can become a member.

We let all the local police agencies use all the ranges at no charge (probably a several hundred thousand dollar contribution to the community by the club) but never do we get any thanks from our mostly liberal politicians (or the police themselves). Plus, their legal beagles tell them they can't even volunteer (as an agency) to help clean up the range because of OSHA regs related to lead exposure (an employee vs volunteer thing). Of course, us "civilians" can inhale all the lead dust we want.

As to the particular point raised by this thread --- most every thing comes down to: (1) who is elected to the Board of Directors, (2) the procedures laid out in the club's bylaws and (3) the laws governing the particular type of corporation that the club is under. At our club we have two tiers of membership, full and associate. Only the full members can vote on corporate club business and run for office, and only about 15% of the club (120 of 850) are full members. One can only become a full member by applying to the Board of Directors after at least one year as an associate. Only about 40 of the full members show up to vote on anything so if a coalition of about 15-20 people can be put together almost anything can be ramrodded through. Thus, my suggestion is to find out how the club operates (legally and otherwise) and get some people that think the way that you do on the governing board. If the governing board as it currently is constituted is not meeting its requirements under law or the club's bylaws, then call them to account.

With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

My local club faced something similar when a gang of shooters that had been kicked out of another club attempted to take ours over. There are a lot of decent people in defensive and action pistol sports, but there are an equal number of thugs and scumbags. You can't let them take over - they have no respect or tolerance for other forms of shooting.

If this is the way that they're playing, simply contact your local BATFE office and anonymously report that you've witnessed illicit firearms transactions by these individuals on club premises. Then contact your local zoning board and relevant government offices. Tell them that the club needs their help, that unsafe practices are taking place, and an undesireable element is attempting to take-over the club. A call to the local police may be in order as well.

The point is - let is be know that you'll burn the place down before you let them take control. This is the only form of negotiation that this type understands.

George Fry wrote:

With the president and a solid majority of the BOD they can't be stopped by parliamentary procedures, and they are not above using false accusations to boot members who oppose them . Why not - it's not like they're under oath. I really could use a good idea or 2.

My local club faced something similar when a gang of shooters that had been kicked out of another club attempted to take ours over. There are a lot of decent people in defensive and action pistol sports, but there are an equal number of thugs and scumbags. You can't let them take over - they have no respect or tolerance for other forms of shooting.

If this is the way that they're playing, simply contact your local BATFE office and anonymously report that you've witnessed illicit firearms transactions by these individuals on club premises. Then contact your local zoning board and relevant government offices. Tell them that the club needs their help, that unsafe practices are taking place, and an undesireable element is attempting to take-over the club. A call to the local police may be in order as well.

The point is - let is be know that you'll burn the place down before you let them take control. This is the only form of negotiation that this type understands.

Bright idea, call in a bogus complaint, that too is against the law. I love wasting my time and the taxpayers dollars having to investigate crap like that, because a bunch of adults want to act like babies and can't get along.

Note to George:

Of course, the course of action you suggest will shut the club down FIRST (call in a false report to the BATF about illegal firearms transactions? What are you, nuts? Can you spell W-A-C-O?) and bring lots of discredit upon shooting and shooters.

You either didn't realize this, or are a troll who wishes to reduce the rights of legitimate shooters.

Steve

OK - I was ranting, don't let my comment distract the discussion.

But 'had-it-up-to-here' should be aware that he's dealing w/ an element that plays hardball. He'd be advised to consult with the police before he confronts these people, just so that there's a paper trail should anything happen.

The situation described is truly sad!

I like to shoot just about anything that puts lead down range - pistol of all types (International, NRA, Police Action, IPSC, IDPA etc), rifle and shotgun (skeet, trap, sporting clays...). Likely the variety is the reason I am not particularly good at any one of them

There is usually some good-humored banter among the proponents of the various disciplines in the clubs where I shoot. I have, happily, never encountered an internecine situation as described.

I think that it time for a change of clubs... when the existing club comes
to its senses, then return.

As others have said, it is not a great problem to set up an indoor air gun range at home or any warehouse type building.

Good luck!!!

Tillman

I too belong to a couple of clubs where this very thing has raised up once or twice. And one of the clubs has just given the OK to shoot " full autos" again. They tried it before unsuccessfully (rounds left the range) and now they are going right down that same road again. I fear we shall be shut down very shortly again. It would appear to me that there is no "glory" in shooting skills any longer. Seems that people just want to hear bang! The (run and gun) guys at our range poke fun at the AP crowd,or whats left of us. Oddly enough, when offered a AP to show us how easy it really is they ALWAYS back down. I saw a post recently in another forum where international discipline shooters were refereed to as librarians,,,,,,how sad.

Anonymous wrote:I saw a post recently in another forum where international discipline shooters were refereed to as librarians,,,,,,how sad.

Depends on your perspective/where you're from.



FWIW, I work for a library in Wyoming. ;)

Brian

ShootingAir.com

I guess we as shooters don't have enough enemies, so now we can start fighting each other, makes a lot of sense to me.

Richard H wrote:I guess we as shooters don't have enough enemies, so now we can start fighting each other, makes a lot of sense to me.

Some of us are well used to this state of affairs :(

Librarians are well educated, well read, capable people. Personally, I see nothing distasteful about being called a librarian. Now being called a ruffian might concern me.

The only post on this subject that I can totally agree with is the one that mentions the fact that : We dont have enough enemys so we have to start fighting among ourselves.