TargetTalk

Steve and I have batted this subject around in the past but sort of agreed to disagree'. My experience with really good coaches was limited to a man named K.P.Dunn. He was the first to contend that 2680 was possible and that was when only two shooters had broken 2650. I am aware of Steves experience with coaches that delibertly provided false information to him to increase their chances of winning the next match. My own experience was with coaches that were best qualified to police uo the brass, and score the targets. I'd like to propose a closer look at the Russian method of retraining their top shooters as coaches when they top out on scores. Send them to a sports training facility to prepare them in best coaching techniques and motivational methods and place them in best positions to train the next generation of medal winners. What say you? Good shooting and coaching Bill Horton

How many shooters (turned) coach were able to get their student / shooters to a higher level than they obtained?

Basically, any level of coach is probably fine for the basics (if the coach has any ability at all), but at the top, what really makes the difference in performance?

See above post. The coach has to help the shooter become a student of shooting, Think about Tiger Woods and his knowledge of golfing. I am convinced that in order for any shooter to progress to the point where he/she is capable of world record performance they must first be capable of writing a better book on how it is done. However the top shooters that I have known were too busy shooting to have the time to write that book. Never the less the shooter must accumulate the essential information to support the performance. You are IMHO correct in your assesment of the majority of coaches being unable to help a shooter advance beyond the coaches own ability. Exceptions do exist . I call to your attention coach Bill Pullem, who wrote ." The new position rifle shooting."He seldom forced his ideas on his shooters yet was able to help them develope onto world class competitors. Not just one but a steady stream over the years. But how do we continue to produce these steady holders ? Do we have any system of replicating Bills sucess for the future. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I am convinced that the absolute most important aspect of developing a world class shooter is to discover someone with the desire, or find a way to instill the desire, to accomplish this feat. I have found that some of my best shooters really did not enjoy shooting in general but loved shooing well. I remember something from one of Lanny Bassham's courses where he said "If you are enjoying your practice you are not really practicing". I also remember that Bill Pullum was always described as someone that was not really a great technical coach but he knew how to create the conditions where someone with pretty good technical skills could take them to the highest level. If you wanted a great technical coach then Bill Krilling was your man.

Something else that obviously helps is to have other great shooters around you all the time, e.g. the USAMU (especially in the 60's and 70's) and currently some of the best college teams, like Alaska, Kentucky and Army.

I know that I am a little off topic but in the final analysis my opinion is that great shooters and great coaches are not created, they are born that way. We just need to find them and get them together.

2650 Plus wrote:.......Send them to a sports training facility to prepare them in best coaching techniques and motivational methods and place them in best positions to train the next generation of medal winners. What say you? ....Bill Horton

You can only send them to a local shooting club to take next Volunteer's open position....

Concept of Developing top level coaches is:
1. Developing a world class shooters
2. Give them BS or MS education....
3. Send them to a sports training facility with respectful Salary resources (Pay & Benefits)
If you can make this happen you don't need to look over to Russian or China Olympic Style target shooters any more :)
Good Shooting.
Ruslan

Just some relatively useless random crap to think about (as usual) for my $0.02

Here's a thought experiment:

Assume we have the best coaches in the world here in the USA. Assume we have 8-hour drive time access for any US citizen to a "cream of the crop" coach employing the best, most modern training & development principles- at a world-class facility. Open dusk to dawn, 7 days a week.

Furthermore, assume the training is 100% free of charge, but athletes must pay their own travel, room and board (and certainly are not paid in any way for training/competing).

What changes?


Apropos of not much-I am reminded of the apocryphal remarks attributed to a 1960s era politician when faced with a(nother) large public-works spending bill: "The questions don't matter, because the answer never changes!"

Steve Swartz


[It is very interesting to consider, as a case study, the sports-program related experience of the collapse of the former Soviet Union. When the extensive central state provided support system (for athletes and coaches) experienced significant cutbacks, what happened? Long term and short term.]

Ref How are the russians doing? Their 19 year old did pretty damned good, Dominating the European circuit this year. Good Shooting Bill Horton [I recognise that I am not right all the time. Sometimes I shoot a nine. How about you Steve?

Here's my .02 cents.

I think that shooting sports people tend to look only at their own sport too much.

I think that shooting sports competitors and coaches could do more by looking at what other sports do.

Somebody already made a reference to Tiger Woods in this thread.

But look at all the other sports.

You can tons of examples of former players who turned out to be good coaches.

You can find many, many examples of great former players who made dismal coaches.

You can even find notable examples of people who never played the sport they coached, but who were great coaches (Lou Holtz in American college football, for example?)

It's the same idea.

Being a great shooter does not mean you'll make a great coach.

Being a great coach doesn't mean you have to have been a World or Olympic champion first.

Roy:

Makes sense to me- and fits with the reality around us. However, for some reason this "2x2 matrix" of coach/shoot capabilities seems to really rub a lot of folks the wrong way in this forum . . .

Cui Bono I guess

Steve

Roy Hill wrote:Here's my .02 cents.
........

Being a great shooter does not mean you'll make a great coach.

Being a great coach doesn't mean you have to have been a World or Olympic champion first.

That's worth an awful lot more than 2 cents Roy. Very well said.

My own coach, sadly departed for many years, was "only" a club shooter who wasn't technically brilliant. Where he excelled was in being able to get "his boys" to perform above their expectations.

Steve - you are eruditer than I am :-)

In what sense are you using the term Cui Bono (who benefits)?

As to actual coaching, I am now jaded about the serious desire of shooter to benefit from training aids. My Dry Fire Turning Target DVD has been dismal in sales. Yet, it works!

Anecdotally, I had to stop live fire for about three months and was using only the DVD to practice turning targets - when I returned to live fire, no problem with the first shot release.

To quote Yoda: "Do or do not... there is no try."

Tillman

At my club we don't have what I would consider coaches, they are people who became range officers and got the weekend "coach" course. They shoot and are at the range but rarely offer help with positions or any other knowledge. Me along with a few other jr. shooters try to help each other to fix our problems. Now what I consider a coach isn't necessarily someone who shoots but some one who has good knowledge and is willing to always help you. One of the best coaches I know doesn't shoot but knows alot from years of just coaching. And I do believe to be able to shoot better and help people you should be able to write a book about shooting that goes beyond your shooting ability. But this is all my opinion

Do I understand correctly that Russ is coaching at a community college? If so how are his shooters doing? Have any of his shooters advanced to high master level yet? Ed Hall has done a lot of excellent writing on the techniques being used by top shooters as has Steve Swartz. Can we point to any positive results that are traceable to their efforts. Surely there must be some who have benefited from exposier to their writings. Do you see what I am trying to get across? We all have something to contribute and just have to get off our xxses and start contributing. Good Shooting Bill Horton

To Bill Horton.
Unfortunately I do not coach any students at College, I'm just trying to get my own degree in business. Over the last couple of years I helped some Olympic style Pistol athletes in US. Three of them we can find in USAS National Ranking some of them are not ready to make a next move yet. As I was told before, I can be helpful only to the athletes that can come over to Michigan, because in my knowlegde and long competitive experience I value the fundamental knowlegde as a very important milestone and the future of the succesful athletes performances. This is a fundation of your own house. For example. If your house fundation is weak you cannot build a second or third floor on it.... If your house fundation is weak..... sooner or later you will get cracks on it and threw those cracks in a rainy day(competition performance) you will get a lot of water in your basement. :(
This is very important to have a good and strong build fundation in your house same as strong build fundation in your fundamental knowlegde and skill in Olympic Style Target Shooting for your future succesful competitive development. Most visitors of this great forum relativly new to our sport as I know. Also I know for sure if they will count only on this single source they can get a lot of missing pieces of important information which sooner or later will become a big gap in the future competitive performance which will distract them to take the respectful winners place.

So, I feel I can’t be too helpful over the Internet..... but after my class insist that they must communicate with me by E-mail. This is how I feel to be most efficient with my time and my students’ needs. If this system works for them, please feel free to share out your experience of work with me if it is helpful….
I do not have any financial support from any colleges or any other organizations… so far my personal wealth is limited to run this business any longer. I’m taking time and money from my family trying to support this development but I do not see any progress yet. :(
Russ

Bill:

Ed and I (and David and many others) on this forum have made it clear from the start that everything we know and think are free for the asking. Has this made an impact on individual shooters?

Hard to say.

However

I believe in making a contribution by providing CONTENT to help others achieve and advance.

Just telling a struggling shooter that they need to be dedicated, committed and find a good coach ("Operators Are Standing By") seems somewhat less than helpful in my mind. Not that it ain't true- but just that it ain't immediately helpful.

Your Mileage Will, Of Course, Vary. Results Not Typical.

Steve Swartz

During the 80's I raced bicycles here, the US, and in Europe. I wasn't good enough to make a living at it so I earned a Cat 2 coaching license which allowed me to coach elite level cyclists at team camps and whatnot. What I was interested in was coaching juniors and entry level riders and I did this with great success. Having participated and experienced racing from the inside I believe it helped me relate to the athletes under my guidance. I think this helped develop good performances because the athletes trusted me. As a coach, my goal was to put myself out of a job with these athletes. When I had no more to teach them I suggested they find someone else to gain another perspective and jump into a bigger pond.

Teaching position and technique for racing was pretty simple and relatively fast. Teaching motivation was hard and long. I believe my biggest asset to the kids was providing some sort of accountability. I was not at all a hard ass , quite the opposite, but I think we all need approval and its difficult to bestow this upon ourselves. Even without a coach it is more motivating to train and easier to make a commitment to training if we have a partner or group to train with. Its more fun with someone recording shot placement and other training pieces so the shooter can focus on a task.

In addition to helping with technical proficiancy the best coaches help us focus and maintain motivation. They help us let go of the doubt and reinforce the positives. Coaching is an art and not every coach meshes with every athlete.

Its also tough to develop coaches when the coach ends up speding a lot of cash with little or no return. Volunteerism last only so long. If the coach doesn't feel appreciated they are going to leave. Coaches, just like athletes need goals too. Many coaches want to help the athlete achieve the athlete's goal so the communication is 2 way. When the coach knows what you want to do they can plan a way to help you reach it. just like shooting a perfect score helps keep the athlete motivated a coach is also motivated to help you do this. The athlete gets the praise for a good performance and the coach isn't even a sidebar in the record book. If we want good coaches we need to provide a way for them to reach the goal they have set and feel the athletes appreciate the efforts made by the coach

Little off the topic, but Steve can you send me your E-Mail address. I have a 13 year old girl who wants to shoot air pistol and no pistol coaches in my area that I know off. She shoots air rifle 370-380 all ready and smallbore 3P 560-580/600 and could use a little guidance with pistol. Rifle coach is not a pistol shooter

Contact me at leslieswartz@verizon.net I am always willing to do what I can!

Also where are you located- I may be aware of resources in your area.

Steve