Gang:
Need ideas and recommendations. Just caught wind of the following message from Jeffery L. Graves, Associate Vice President for Legal Affairs, The University of Texas at Austin. This was in reply to a question from the gentlemen who has been running the Austin PTO on the UT campus for years:
"The only people that may shoot at the UT range (besides the ROTC folks) are members of the University Rifle and Pistol Club. The only people that could possibly be in the club are current faculty, staff, and students, or a subset of those groups, depending on how the club is formed. If a staff member wants you to instruct him, he can join the club and participate in club activities, provided he meets the club’s qualifications. You cannot use state resources (UT’s range) to provide instruction to people outside of the regular activities of the club, regardless of whether the person receiving instruction is an employee or student. If a staff member wants you to instruct his son, you need to go to another range and make your arrangements with the staff member. While a club may have a non UT volunteer coach and other non-UT volunteers like Range Safety Officers assist the club with practice sessions and matches, this does not impart to the coach or volunteers the right to use the range themselves. Only faculty, staff and students may have the benefit of the use of state resources, in this case the range. The club needs to be run by the members of the club, not the coach. Activities of the club such as matches, need to be arranged by the leadership of the club, eg students, faculty or staff."
Now as much as I would personally disagree with his reasoning ("private citizens" benefit from "state resources" all the freakin' time- THAT'S WHAT WE PAY TAXES FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE! Sheesh. Sorry bout that.)- my opinion doesn't count.
Anyhow
What can we do to turn this around? Is the prognosis as bleak as I think it is?
Steve Swartz
Help Wanted: PTOs Shut Down on UT Campus
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Steve Swartz
They make reference to matches, who do they think attends matches (only people within the club?). Are there any other facilities that are used for competitions ie track, swimming, diving, gymnastics. Can the facility be rented for use thus state resources aren't being used for free they are being paid for.
It dosen't clearly state that all competitors in a match must be students, or faculty. It says the match has to be run by Students or faculty, is the guy who ran the PTO a student or faculty?
When you play a football game only the UT players are students so how does that wash?
I sounds like someone needs a meeting with this guy to find out what the real agenda is.
Can appreciate the pain the University of Toronto seems to be in the process of shutting down their range because you know guns are dangerous. We need laws against guns to save us, they never answer the question why the laws against killing someone haven't seemed to work.
It dosen't clearly state that all competitors in a match must be students, or faculty. It says the match has to be run by Students or faculty, is the guy who ran the PTO a student or faculty?
When you play a football game only the UT players are students so how does that wash?
I sounds like someone needs a meeting with this guy to find out what the real agenda is.
Can appreciate the pain the University of Toronto seems to be in the process of shutting down their range because you know guns are dangerous. We need laws against guns to save us, they never answer the question why the laws against killing someone haven't seemed to work.
Last edited by Richard H on Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
There are a couple of ways around this, which is what the university wants:
1. Go to College, spend lots of money including (locally) $100 per semester to use the recreation center. University gets $
2. Start and then take shooting classes. Then they get money from other people who are taking the shooting class, and they get to decide who attends the class. University gets even more $.
Don't whine too much, at least UT HAS a range. Supposedly the athletic department here uses their old range for storage. There's probably nothing there to show it even USED to be a range. Heck, there's probably not anyone at the college who even knows it WAS there. (It also may just be a rumor)
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
There are a couple of ways around this, which is what the university wants:
1. Go to College, spend lots of money including (locally) $100 per semester to use the recreation center. University gets $
2. Start and then take shooting classes. Then they get money from other people who are taking the shooting class, and they get to decide who attends the class. University gets even more $.
Don't whine too much, at least UT HAS a range. Supposedly the athletic department here uses their old range for storage. There's probably nothing there to show it even USED to be a range. Heck, there's probably not anyone at the college who even knows it WAS there. (It also may just be a rumor)
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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Guest
Re: Help Wanted: PTOs Shut Down on UT Campus
Steve -Steve Swartz wrote:
Only faculty, staff and students may have the benefit of the use of state resources, in this case the range. The club needs to be run by the members of the club, not the coach. Activities of the club such as matches, need to be arranged by the leadership of the club, eg students, faculty or staff."
Steve Swartz
Can the UT club organize/run the PTOs? This would make the situation analogous to an NCAA football game. If the powers-that-be want to exclude non-UT club members, then it would be reasonable to assume that they will also exclude non-UT football players from their games.
Every school I've ever been associated with has always rented out its facilities for funtions (seminars, training, continuing education, sports camps, etc., etc.) which are geared SOLELY to those outside the university community. If they're going to be consistent (ha-ha-ha-ha) then these sorts of activities need to be eliminated as well.
Good luck, and I'll echo the comments that you're dang lucky to have a range there at all.
Tom Amlie
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dhurt
Hey Steve, Are you talking about "civilians" being unable to shoot matches or unable to have range time? At Iowa State University, our school club used money from matches to suppliment our university money, in fact the Sports Club Council liked clubs to raise their own money. Maybe Match Money is way to appease your administrator? Only University students or faculty could belong to our university club or participate in club practise time. I really enjoyed being a club member and later became president of the club. It was exposure in this club that I learned there was such a thing as shooting competitions, something I have looked forward to for the past 23 years. Oh how I wish I could have had some exposure as a junior! Sadly, the ISU range has been converted to "classrooms" despite continuous building projects. They really needed the space I am sure. Later, Dwaine
Hit him where it hurts...
...I would approach all the UT alumni who are in support of the shooting sport. University alumni constitute a large percentage of where the university's scholarship comes from. Identify the "legal source" by name and bring as much heat upon him as possible. Texas is gun country, you guys should get something going in no time. Best wishes.
UT Range shut down to all outsiders
Steve, the UT situation is a sad decision.
It seems that the new dean's staff member (attorney) who is vehemently opposed to guns has found a way to split the people who use the range into two groups, thus killing off the the use of the range for USAS PTO competions and practices. Seems it was also done in a way that does not alienate the attorney from his boss (the dean) yet still achieves the overall aim of shutting the range down. Unfortunately the UT side of things would be no where without the USAS side and will surely fail as soon as the civilian support, maintenance, and training leaves.
Now that this has gone on for over a year with the outcome exactly as that attorney wanted, indicates their desire to crush shooting at UT at all costs. This latest decision will bleed out whatever was left of the USAS side of things. Only goat pictures will help at this point, I'm afraid...
Personally, I'm disgusted. I was one of those non-UT volunteer coaches, gunsmith, maintenance people that gave time and energy to promoting shooting across the spectrum at the UT range. I guess I'll go and pick up my gear stored there :(
Lonnie Meyers
It seems that the new dean's staff member (attorney) who is vehemently opposed to guns has found a way to split the people who use the range into two groups, thus killing off the the use of the range for USAS PTO competions and practices. Seems it was also done in a way that does not alienate the attorney from his boss (the dean) yet still achieves the overall aim of shutting the range down. Unfortunately the UT side of things would be no where without the USAS side and will surely fail as soon as the civilian support, maintenance, and training leaves.
Now that this has gone on for over a year with the outcome exactly as that attorney wanted, indicates their desire to crush shooting at UT at all costs. This latest decision will bleed out whatever was left of the USAS side of things. Only goat pictures will help at this point, I'm afraid...
Personally, I'm disgusted. I was one of those non-UT volunteer coaches, gunsmith, maintenance people that gave time and energy to promoting shooting across the spectrum at the UT range. I guess I'll go and pick up my gear stored there :(
Lonnie Meyers
Lonnie Meyers
Round Rock, Texas
Round Rock, Texas
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Steve Swartz
Lonnie:
I need to check back with Phil- I think the plan is to contact both USAS and the NRA for whatever advice/help we can get.
This is tangled up in the issue of the new ROTC building (not sure how; other than the new building was the "moment of opportunity" to do away with shooting at UT).
We will also be contact TSRA and they can send out newsletter blasts on the issue; one would think at least some of hte UT alumni are NRA and/or TSRA members and will get the word.
I think this will require one of those "letter writing" campaigns to University and State politicians and officials. TSRA could help us get a mailing list put together as well I think.
Hopefully Phil can update us all though his email distribution list (offline from Target Talk). I'm sure he is probably overwhelmed a bit and frustrated right now, but we should all be albe to pick up a little slack here and there.
Jeezum Pete this sucks . . . fallback position is to move the PTO to the Austin R&P ranges; I believe they now have 12 10 meter firing points indoors (as well as 25 and 50 yard outdoor ranges).
Steve Swartz
I need to check back with Phil- I think the plan is to contact both USAS and the NRA for whatever advice/help we can get.
This is tangled up in the issue of the new ROTC building (not sure how; other than the new building was the "moment of opportunity" to do away with shooting at UT).
We will also be contact TSRA and they can send out newsletter blasts on the issue; one would think at least some of hte UT alumni are NRA and/or TSRA members and will get the word.
I think this will require one of those "letter writing" campaigns to University and State politicians and officials. TSRA could help us get a mailing list put together as well I think.
Hopefully Phil can update us all though his email distribution list (offline from Target Talk). I'm sure he is probably overwhelmed a bit and frustrated right now, but we should all be albe to pick up a little slack here and there.
Jeezum Pete this sucks . . . fallback position is to move the PTO to the Austin R&P ranges; I believe they now have 12 10 meter firing points indoors (as well as 25 and 50 yard outdoor ranges).
Steve Swartz
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mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
HI
I strongly suggest that you check into what it costs to obtain a non-student membership in the recreation center.
At Wichita State University, the rec center membership costs $36.00 for 10 time attendence or $5.00 for one visit. An Alumni membership is $230.00 a year unlimited attendence. Student cost is $27.00 a semester. I looked at the website and University of Illinois has a similar deal. UT-Austin has a similar deal for $8.00 a day for a guest. While the dean's attorney may hate guns, the dean likes money. As long as you pay the right department, the correct price, you'll get to do what you want.
Mike
Wichita KS
I strongly suggest that you check into what it costs to obtain a non-student membership in the recreation center.
At Wichita State University, the rec center membership costs $36.00 for 10 time attendence or $5.00 for one visit. An Alumni membership is $230.00 a year unlimited attendence. Student cost is $27.00 a semester. I looked at the website and University of Illinois has a similar deal. UT-Austin has a similar deal for $8.00 a day for a guest. While the dean's attorney may hate guns, the dean likes money. As long as you pay the right department, the correct price, you'll get to do what you want.
Mike
Wichita KS
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Steve Swartz