Interservice pistol matches
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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2650 Plus
Interservice pistol matches
Gunnery Sgt Zins fired a new national record score with the rimfire of 896.The current national champion from the AMU beat him out in the grand aggragate ,but I dont know what the winning score was. These shooters are competing at a much higher level than we were. To me that means they have found a better way to do our thing. That is shoot tens 's .Could it be that the pistols are more accurate. Or is it a shooter induced improvement? In any case we need to discover where this breakthrough came from and get the word out to the next generation. Since we all paid for the work at AMU , we need to do all we can to make sure that what they have learnd is spread all around the country. Help Ed Good shooting Bill Horton
Spread it around the country?
Why? Why spread it all over the country? The world in this case.
Yes, that is really a rhetorical question. You make it sound like what they are doing is magical. It isn't. They stand up there, hold the pistol with the sights aligned and on the target and pull the trigger without disturbing that alignment (much). They do it 90 times. You can do the same thing. You can buy, with enough money, the most accurate gun, even more accurate than Zins' gun. But my money will be on Brian every time. Why, you ask?
Because those guys don't shoot for tens. They shoot for Xs. When they miss they get a ten.
So I don't believe there is anything "special" or "super-secret" that the AMU or the Marines have learned. They are just applying the fundamentals correctly. I am glad they are using my tax dollars to learn how to perform well, but I don't see the need to go on a search for the "holy grail"of pistol shooting when we have it in front of our noses.
When I was shooting service rifle (High Master) for the Army reserve, there were any number of Sharpshooter and expert class shooters asking us questions in the pit (target butts for our overseas friends) what the secret was. Why were we able to shoot 97+ standing when they could barely break 90. Why could we shoot 10s and Xs at 1000 yards with an M14 when they had trouble hitting the paper? They were looking for the "secret." Many went away disappointed, at least those who asked me for the "secret," because the answer I gave was training and hard work on the fundamentals during that training.
My advice is to ask intelligent questions of the top shooters if you get a chance. Ask them how they work to improve their hold in TRAINING. How they improve their trigger control in TRAINING. How they work to improve their sight alignment in TRAINING. How do they improve their concentration during , you guessed it, TRAINING! You just might get a couple of gold nuggets to take home and work on in YOUR TRAINING!
And that's from a rifle shooter!
Marcus
Yes, that is really a rhetorical question. You make it sound like what they are doing is magical. It isn't. They stand up there, hold the pistol with the sights aligned and on the target and pull the trigger without disturbing that alignment (much). They do it 90 times. You can do the same thing. You can buy, with enough money, the most accurate gun, even more accurate than Zins' gun. But my money will be on Brian every time. Why, you ask?
Because those guys don't shoot for tens. They shoot for Xs. When they miss they get a ten.
So I don't believe there is anything "special" or "super-secret" that the AMU or the Marines have learned. They are just applying the fundamentals correctly. I am glad they are using my tax dollars to learn how to perform well, but I don't see the need to go on a search for the "holy grail"of pistol shooting when we have it in front of our noses.
When I was shooting service rifle (High Master) for the Army reserve, there were any number of Sharpshooter and expert class shooters asking us questions in the pit (target butts for our overseas friends) what the secret was. Why were we able to shoot 97+ standing when they could barely break 90. Why could we shoot 10s and Xs at 1000 yards with an M14 when they had trouble hitting the paper? They were looking for the "secret." Many went away disappointed, at least those who asked me for the "secret," because the answer I gave was training and hard work on the fundamentals during that training.
My advice is to ask intelligent questions of the top shooters if you get a chance. Ask them how they work to improve their hold in TRAINING. How they improve their trigger control in TRAINING. How they work to improve their sight alignment in TRAINING. How do they improve their concentration during , you guessed it, TRAINING! You just might get a couple of gold nuggets to take home and work on in YOUR TRAINING!
And that's from a rifle shooter!
Marcus
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USAMU
Interservice Pistol Championnships
FORT BENNING, Ga. – The U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit dominated the 48th annual Interservice Pistol Championships conducted at Phillips and Parks ranges June 8 to 15. More than 50 shooters from the Army, Army Reserve, Army National Guard, Marine Corps, Marine Corps Reserve, Navy and Air Force competed.
The competitors were presented their plaques and trophies at an awards banquet at the Columbus Trade and Convention Center – the Iron Works – the evening of June 15. Former USAMU Commander Lt. Col. David J. Liwanag was the guest speaker and one of the awards presenters, just hours before he deployed to Iraq.
“One handed precision pistol shooting is an amazingly difficult skill,” Liwanag said. “If it were easy, everybody would do it.”
Liwanag stressed that this tough marksmanship training was an essential skill for all military – especially during this time of war. “We’re striving for more than interservice bragging rights,” he continued.
The USAMU Service Pistol Team coached by Staff Sgt. James M. Henderson won Interservice Pistol Team Championship. Shooters were Henderson, Staff Sgt. Robert S. Park II, Staff Sgt. Adam E. Sokolowski, Staff Sgt. Gregory S. Wilson, Sgt. Michael S. Gasser and Sgt. 1st Class Eric G. Daniels, who was also the captain. Henderson’s team won the Center Fire, Service Pistol and the .45-Caliber Team competitions and took second place in the .22-Caliber Team match.
The U.S. Marine Corps Team coached by Gunnery Sgt. Jerry Zingg was second in the Service Pistol and .45-Caliber Team championships; Chief Warrant Officer 3 James Fraley was the captain and the shooters were Gunnery Sgt. Brian Zins, Staff Sgt. Troy Allenbaugh and Sgts. Matthew Walsh and Adam Pepper.
The USAMU Team of Sokolowski, Park, Wilson and Watson won the Combat Pistol Team Match. In second place was the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Team and the U.S. Army Reserve Team was third.
Henderson won the Interservice Pistol Championship with a score of 3,542 points out of a possible 3,600, breaking the interservice record of 3,536 that he himself set in 2004. He also won the Service Pistol Championship, finished second in the .45-Caliber Championship and took third place in the Center Fire Championship.
Zins took second place overall and won the .22- and .45-Caliber championships as well as the Warm Up Match. He set a new Interservice Record of 896 points out of a possible 900 points in the .22 Match, breaking his old record of 895 points, which he set in 1996.
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The competitors were presented their plaques and trophies at an awards banquet at the Columbus Trade and Convention Center – the Iron Works – the evening of June 15. Former USAMU Commander Lt. Col. David J. Liwanag was the guest speaker and one of the awards presenters, just hours before he deployed to Iraq.
“One handed precision pistol shooting is an amazingly difficult skill,” Liwanag said. “If it were easy, everybody would do it.”
Liwanag stressed that this tough marksmanship training was an essential skill for all military – especially during this time of war. “We’re striving for more than interservice bragging rights,” he continued.
The USAMU Service Pistol Team coached by Staff Sgt. James M. Henderson won Interservice Pistol Team Championship. Shooters were Henderson, Staff Sgt. Robert S. Park II, Staff Sgt. Adam E. Sokolowski, Staff Sgt. Gregory S. Wilson, Sgt. Michael S. Gasser and Sgt. 1st Class Eric G. Daniels, who was also the captain. Henderson’s team won the Center Fire, Service Pistol and the .45-Caliber Team competitions and took second place in the .22-Caliber Team match.
The U.S. Marine Corps Team coached by Gunnery Sgt. Jerry Zingg was second in the Service Pistol and .45-Caliber Team championships; Chief Warrant Officer 3 James Fraley was the captain and the shooters were Gunnery Sgt. Brian Zins, Staff Sgt. Troy Allenbaugh and Sgts. Matthew Walsh and Adam Pepper.
The USAMU Team of Sokolowski, Park, Wilson and Watson won the Combat Pistol Team Match. In second place was the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve Team and the U.S. Army Reserve Team was third.
Henderson won the Interservice Pistol Championship with a score of 3,542 points out of a possible 3,600, breaking the interservice record of 3,536 that he himself set in 2004. He also won the Service Pistol Championship, finished second in the .45-Caliber Championship and took third place in the Center Fire Championship.
Zins took second place overall and won the .22- and .45-Caliber championships as well as the Warm Up Match. He set a new Interservice Record of 896 points out of a possible 900 points in the .22 Match, breaking his old record of 895 points, which he set in 1996.
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Hmm....
I tend to agree that the Big Secret is that there IS no secret....just the basics, executed flawlessly.
That being said, there probably are methods of teaching and of training that enable shooters to master the basics more quickly. And it would be good to have those disseminated. The real question is whether or not it should be disseminated open source.
I tend to agree that the Big Secret is that there IS no secret....just the basics, executed flawlessly.
That being said, there probably are methods of teaching and of training that enable shooters to master the basics more quickly. And it would be good to have those disseminated. The real question is whether or not it should be disseminated open source.
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moi
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Pradeep5
Re: Interservice pistol matches
They get paid to shoot. Obviously they have tremendous skill as well, but that is developed over time to some extent. They have the will and determination, and the AMU enables them to dedicate most of their energies to doing what they love.2650 Plus wrote:These shooters are competing at a much higher level than we were. To me that means they have found a better way to do our thing. That is shoot tens 's .Could it be that the pistols are more accurate. Or is it a shooter induced improvement?
How much better do you think you would be if you could go to the range instead of going to a 9-5 job?
Please note that this is not a bash against the AMU, all the more power to them if they can achieve their goals.
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Ed Hall
The secret isn't in the information. It's in the understanding of the information. Although we can write, speak, demonstrate, read, hear and witness the intricacies, the knowledge has to be gained through experience and understanding, and realized by modifying our own belief system to incorporate the new information.
The best training methods are those which allow the shooter to experience success, focus on the positive and promote progress. Most of the shooting population inhibits their own progress by focusing too much energy on learning all about how to fail.
If you want to have a low score, just listen to all the competitors around you at a match, trying to outdo each other with horror stories: "Man, my first shot was a six!", "Yeah, well I shot a .... miss!", "Hell, you should have seen me last week - I cut the paper in half with a late shot."...
Most will not accept this, but to improve, change your attitude toward improvement. Stop thinking of yourself as stuck in a rut, as having a such-and-such average, as having trouble with... Instead, study the things that work, skip the things that don't and believe in yourself. Yes, you need to understand the reality, but focus on goals higher than you've performed. Revel in success and stop trying to overdo modesty by getting wrapped up in down-spirals of poor shooting examples. If someone compliments your target, say "Thanks!" instead of, "I can't duplicate it, though."
BTW, just for clarification, the 896 was an InterService record. The National record is 898-62x. It was set in 1968 and matched in 1998. Sounds like a tough record...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
The best training methods are those which allow the shooter to experience success, focus on the positive and promote progress. Most of the shooting population inhibits their own progress by focusing too much energy on learning all about how to fail.
If you want to have a low score, just listen to all the competitors around you at a match, trying to outdo each other with horror stories: "Man, my first shot was a six!", "Yeah, well I shot a .... miss!", "Hell, you should have seen me last week - I cut the paper in half with a late shot."...
Most will not accept this, but to improve, change your attitude toward improvement. Stop thinking of yourself as stuck in a rut, as having a such-and-such average, as having trouble with... Instead, study the things that work, skip the things that don't and believe in yourself. Yes, you need to understand the reality, but focus on goals higher than you've performed. Revel in success and stop trying to overdo modesty by getting wrapped up in down-spirals of poor shooting examples. If someone compliments your target, say "Thanks!" instead of, "I can't duplicate it, though."
BTW, just for clarification, the 896 was an InterService record. The National record is 898-62x. It was set in 1968 and matched in 1998. Sounds like a tough record...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Ed Hall
Additional Information
For those interested in the InterService Results, the USAMU used the CMP Competition Tracking software to post the scores. All the results can be seen at:
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_m ... tchID=2465
Of note, Brian Zins (USMC) fired 2676-168x for the 2700 portion of the match. James Henderson was "only" at 2664-148x at that point. Henderson made up 18 points in the Service Pistol match to finish in first place for the four gun aggregate.
I have now been at matches where Zins fired 2676, 2678 and 2679 in his pursuit of the National record of 2680...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_m ... tchID=2465
Of note, Brian Zins (USMC) fired 2676-168x for the 2700 portion of the match. James Henderson was "only" at 2664-148x at that point. Henderson made up 18 points in the Service Pistol match to finish in first place for the four gun aggregate.
I have now been at matches where Zins fired 2676, 2678 and 2679 in his pursuit of the National record of 2680...
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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2650 Plus
Interservice perfection
Being double distinguished, Double presidents hundred , shot a 199 8x standing the first time I shot at Perry I think I learned a thing or two about both. Mr Marcus I never try to put down another shooter for any reason. Your own progress to high master with service rifle is to be commended. Every winning score shot at the level of competition that existed at the interservice matches reflects great credit upon the individuals achievements. If you would like a real challenge come out to the pistol range and give it a try. In spite of simularities in fundamentals there is considerable difference in execution. I believe you will be amazed at the level of difficulty that exists in all pistol competition. Good Shooting Bill Horton