TargetTalk

Dear All

There is a new petition the Prime Minister to allow pistols to be held by FAC holders who belong to a target club

Sorry but its for British Citizens only, but if you are one please participate

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/legalpistols/

Sorry but its for British Citizens only

Julian

Wish i could help, glad i cant sign!

Best of luck!

Is there any real possiblility over there that the government might be persuaded to change their views (I hope so).

Richard H wrote:Is there any real possiblility over there that the government might be persuaded to change their views (I hope so).

None whatsoever, but I signed the petition anyway.

Sorta what I figured

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:Is there any real possibility over there that the government might be persuaded to change their views (I hope so).

None whatsoever, but I signed the petition anyway.

I disagree, I believe there is a comprise that could be reached, but it would involved compromises for air guns, replicas, soft air etc in return for licensable handguns with severe restrictions on handgun types ie 22 and 32 ISSF conforming only. It won’t be popular in some circles.

but...... it will take a concerted effort for from the governing bodies and a public campaign to distance target shooters from gun nuts but .... thats not going to happen.......

So I guess I really do agree with David


However I seriously believe that we need to do this before we get more bans inflicted on us. The NSRA and other organization _must_ take a joint public anti gun grime stance and work with the police to find the appropriate bans the will keep the public safe and not damage the sport. This must occur before a ban is inflicted as any attempt to defend a ban situation is seen as the NSRA defending gun nuts. Just look at what happened to fox hunting.

With respect to air guns and replicas, as many people have pointed out, the laws are sufficient as they are, however the sad truth is people particularly in the big cities London, Manchester Liverpool, seem to just not care that that they are breaking the law, leaving very few options.

Believe me that an airgun ban is very much on the agendas with a statistical (from home office / police reports) of 3 woundingper day in England and Wales including an average of 1 every 3 days which “necessiated detention in hospital or involved fractures, concussion, severe general shock, penetration by a bullet or multiple shot wounds”. With respect to crimes committed with a gun “Imitation weapons were used in 30 per cent of non–air weapon offences.”

As regards “real hand gun crime” the numbers are climbing steadily since 2000, The simple fact is that if you can smuggle cocaine, you can add a gun to the shipment. According to a couple of police senior officers I have spoken with there is a steady trickle of hand guns coming in to the uk, through this route. Although the quantities coming through in any one “shipment” are small, the number the collective total is alarming.



http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs07/hosb0207.pdf


Julian

JulianY wrote: but...... it will take a concerted effort for from the governing bodies and a public campaign to distance target shooters from gun nuts but .... thats not going to happen.......

Julian

With apologies, but you've touched a nerve....

What is a "gun nut"? Someone who thinks he/she should be able to own a gun without having to grovel at the feet of some petty bureaucrat?

We must all hang together, or else we will assuredly all hang separately. Being the last man hung is a small consolation.

Does anyone really think that there are many in positions of legislative power who gives a rat's a** about our sport? If a compromise is made which brings air guns into the same category as cartridge firearms, you'll soon find the airguns effectively banned, just as cartridge firearms are.

Anonymous wrote:

JulianY wrote: but...... it will take a concerted effort for from the governing bodies and a public campaign to distance target shooters from gun nuts but .... thats not going to happen.......

Julian

With apologies, but you've touched a nerve....

What is a "gun nut"? Someone who thinks he/she should be able to own a gun without having to grovel at the feet of some petty bureaucrat?

IMHO, it is someone who owns (or desperately want to own) a gun in a misguided (often testosterone fuelled) belief than it will give them "power" or status. They are not particularly interested in the accuracy of a gun, its provenance or the quality of its manufacture. Nor are they greatly interested in improving or developing their shooting skills or testing their skills against other shooters. Their views on guns are almost always shaped by the image of firearms as portrayed by Hollywood or the video gaming industry. They believe that the larger the calibre, the better the gun must be and if it has an instantly recognisable and catchy name (e.g. “Glock”) it must be even better still.

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:Is there any real possiblility over there that the government might be persuaded to change their views (I hope so).

None whatsoever, but I signed the petition anyway.

Have any prominent Tories indicated that things could change under a future Conservative government?

"Guest" wrote:[/quote] IMHO, it is someone who owns (or desperately want to own) a gun in a misguided (often testosterone fuelled) belief than it will give them "power" or status. They are not particularly interested in the accuracy of a gun, its provenance or the quality of its manufacture. Nor are they greatly interested in improving or developing their shooting skills or testing their skills against other shooters. Their views on guns are almost always shaped by the image of firearms as portrayed by Hollywood or the video gaming industry. They believe that the larger the calibre, the better the gun must be and if it has an instantly recognisable and catchy name (e.g. “Glock”) it must be even better still.[/quote]

More generally, a gun nut is someone who believes that a gun has some sort of life of its own, that it can be inherently good or evil. A gun nut fails to see a gun for what it is: an inanimate tool designed to accomplish various tasks, such as sport or self-defense. Nearly all of the most rabid gun banners are gun nuts (and the remainder are political opportunists).

FredB

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

JulianY wrote: but...... it will take a concerted effort for from the governing bodies and a public campaign to distance target shooters from gun nuts but .... thats not going to happen.......

Julian

With apologies, but you've touched a nerve....

What is a "gun nut"? Someone who thinks he/she should be able to own a gun without having to grovel at the feet of some petty bureaucrat?

IMHO, it is someone who owns (or desperately want to own) a gun in a misguided (often testosterone fuelled) belief than it will give them "power" or status. They are not particularly interested in the accuracy of a gun, its provenance or the quality of its manufacture. Nor are they greatly interested in improving or developing their shooting skills or testing their skills against other shooters. Their views on guns are almost always shaped by the image of firearms as portrayed by Hollywood or the video gaming industry. They believe that the larger the calibre, the better the gun must be and if it has an instantly recognisable and catchy name (e.g. “Glock”) it must be even better still.

Where do those who legally carry handguns for self defense fall in your neat categorizations?

Fortitudo Dei wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:Is there any real possiblility over there that the government might be persuaded to change their views (I hope so).

None whatsoever, but I signed the petition anyway.

Have any prominent Tories indicated that things could change under a future Conservative government?

Quite the reverse I'm afraid.

David Cameron, the leader of the Conservative Party, has said that they will not repeal the pistol ban (although this was personal opinion rather than official policy). He did however make the concession that they would probably allow the "Olympic Team" to train at military bases.

Anonymous wrote:

JulianY wrote: but...... it will take a concerted effort for from the governing bodies and a public campaign to distance target shooters from gun nuts but .... thats not going to happen.......

Julian

With apologies, but you've touched a nerve....

What is a "gun nut"? Someone who thinks he/she should be able to own a gun without having to grovel at the feet of some petty bureaucrat?

We must all hang together, or else we will assuredly all hang separately. Being the last man hung is a small consolation.

Does anyone really think that there are many in positions of legislative power who gives a rat's a** about our sport? If a compromise is made which brings air guns into the same category as cartridge firearms, you'll soon find the airguns effectively banned, just as cartridge firearms are.

Guest,

I realize that this problem cannot be resolved without some one loosing some “rights” but allow me to clarify what I meant.

The British tabloid press caters to the masses and their daily appetite for sensationalism. The danger / problem is for shooters to be labeled as “Gun Nuts”, what ever anyone feels about the phrase, I assure you in the eyes of the tabloid press it is very derogatory and the type of stuff the love to sell just to get people wound up.

A “Gun Nut” its the eyes of the tabloid press would be person that owns / shoot large caliber, preferable fully automatic weapons, whilst running round the country side wearing combat camouflage clothing and pretending to be some thing they are not ie Rambo / Navy SEAL/ ….. or waiting for the end of the world. The perception is these people are three screws lose, dangerous, and once screw short of making pip bombs, or conducting the next school shooting. – its prejudice I know but it how they vote!

Regardless of right or wrong, or the definition of the term, what is important is for us to distance our selves from that stereo type, and present our selves as serious sportsmen / women. The general public is ignorant of what we do, yet it is sure of its beliefs eve if they are base on a lack of knowledge

You see by having the nation bodies take an anti gun crime stance, we gain sympathy, support, and some respect. Any opposition will get labeled the “gun nuts” and not us. In the UK at the moment we also have the Olympics in 20012 it incite passions.

Lastly I don’t see air guns becoming banned but I could perceive a new combined airgun/shotgun permit. The problem is that in Scotland they are calling for an outright ban.

Julian

Julian,
Your proposal reminds me of the attitude taken by (too) many hunters here in the U.S. viz. all I are about is my hunting rifle/shotgun; let the government ban assault rifles and pistols, it doesn't affect me.

As a previous poster noted - if we don't hang together, we'll all hang separately.

Frankly, I think the fight over gun ownership in Britain was lost when the public decided it would give up the right to self defense and give it over to the government. You are on the slippery slope now.

Fred

Fred Mannis wrote: Frankly, I think the fight over gun ownership in Britain was lost when the public decided it would give up the right to self defense and give it over to the government. You are on the slippery slope now.

Fred

Fred,
With respect the public didn't give up their guns for self defence they were taken away by politicians at the time too scared about civil unrest and civil wars. But that is not relevant to this discussion.

I tend to agree with David but that doesn't mean to say I think it's a lost cause and not worth fighting for, never say never !

Rob.

Fred Mannis wrote:Julian,
Your proposal reminds me of the attitude taken by (too) many hunters here in the U.S. viz. all I are about is my hunting rifle/shotgun; let the government ban assault rifles and pistols, it doesn't affect me.

Yes I can see how you could come to that conclusion, but I believe I am been a bit more open minded and practical than that.

Fred Mannis wrote: Frankly, I think the fight over gun ownership in Britain was lost when the public decided it would give up the right to self defense and give it over to the government. You are on the slippery slope now.

Fred

Franky Fred I fear your are more than correct than you know. I suspect in the extreme long term we will see a complete ban on ALL types of guns including toy ones, unless we change the image.

My point is simple; This is the game we are playing, we did not make the rules, we dont like them, but now we have them, lets play the rules to our advance. Yes there is advantage in numbers - if they pull together which they dont, but there is also advantage in elitism too. Britain wants an needs heroes , lets give it to them. Remember it was Richards Faulds (Olympic Gold Medal) efforts with the shotgun that is now providing financial support through the sporting bodies to the entire shooting community. If I could save every body I wood, but I cant , I have to look for ways which the public ( not me ) may deem to be acceptable.

This is a great example of the image the British public will buy in to;
http://www.themall.co.uk/family-and-community.aspx

we need a stance and ambassadors, maybe it will only delay the inevitable , but we will have tried.

JUlian

Julian, Rob, and David (and any other UK shooters) -

This goes off on a bit of a tangent, but I am curious.

Apparently your press sells the idea that "guns are the root of all evil" pretty well.

Does the press (or any politicians) in the UK ever get into the issue of appropriate punishment for those who commit crimes? Here in the US there is a seemingly constant tug-of-war between those who argue for controlling crime by incarcerating criminals and those who argue for controlling crime by restricting gun ownership. Are there calls in the UK for more rigorous penalties for those who commit violent crimes?

In my state of Pennsylvania there was a proposal for stiff minimum mandatory sentences for child sexual assault, and the "social justice" groups came out of the woodwork claiming it was somehow unfair to the abuser. I assume you have the same sort of groups in the UK? Again, sorry to go off topic but I really am curious.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom Amlie wrote:Does the press (or any politicians) in the UK ever get into the issue of appropriate punishment for those who commit crimes? Here in the US there is a seemingly constant tug-of-war between those who argue for controlling crime by incarcerating criminals and those who argue for controlling crime by restricting gun ownership. Are there calls in the UK for more rigorous penalties for those who commit violent crimes?

If only. Unfortunately we have so many do-gooders in this country that there are moves to cut, or even remove, prison sentances for non-violent criminals. The idea is that it will create more space in our full prisons for violent criminals. If they gave longer sentances to those violent criminals then the prisons would still be full with no room for more prisoners.

I fall into the "hang-em and flog-em" camp. Build more prisons, run them along military lines and give long sentances. Do not abuse the prisoners but do not give them home comforts.

Sorry, this is going way OT

Yes, a dull uninspiring enviroment, with authoriatian leaders is exactly what criminals need!

And most of all, punishment is the best deterrent!! History has showded it has worked great!!!

David Levene wrote: I fall into the "hang-em and flog-em" camp. Build more prisons, run them along military lines and give long sentances. Do not abuse the prisoners but do not give them home comforts.

God forbid, you might make them useful members of society.

....tongue so far in my cheek it hurts!

JY