TargetTalk

No that we have people shooting 70 tens in a row, I wonder what the ISSF are going to do , I would assume that the ISSF will soon have to move the goal posts. any speculation on what they might / could change.

JY

Many of us will remember the ISSF's moves in 2003/2004 to introduce dramatically different clothing rules in the 2005 rules.

IIRC the outcry resulted in the formation of a group to look into the rifle clothing issue and the agreement not to change the rules before January 2009.

I think we can expect further moves later this year and next year in preparation for the new 2009 rules.

Having said that, with my lack of knowledge on the technicalities of rifle shooting, I don't know if clothing rule changes would affect the prone events as much as they would the 3P. I doubt whether the ISSF will worry about prone scores too much until they see 6 or 7 shooters in the same match scoring 600 in the qualification round or the overall match being won with 707+

David Levene wrote: Having said that, with my lack of knowledge on the technicalities of rifle shooting, I don't know if clothing rule changes would affect the prone events as much as they would the 3P. I doubt whether the ISSF will worry about prone scores too much until they see 6 or 7 shooters in the same match scoring 600 in the qualification round or the overall match being won with 707+

True but I bet its like the 3 minuit mile, once one person did lots started to, the pressure on the issf will come when it looks like they could have many 600s for a final !

JY

JulianY wrote:True but I bet its like the 3 minute mile,

That's a race I'd like to see (should be 4 minute), but I know what you mean.

I THINK there's only been one World Cup with two 600s, Benning in 2005, and only 6 people have done it at that level or above this millenium. I don't think the ISSF have to panic just yet.

I don't know the stats but it appears 400's in womens air rifle are more common, so perhaps that's the next candidate for some serious changes (?). Which would obviously equally apply to mens air rifle.

Rob.

David Levene wrote: That's a race I'd like to see (should be 4 minute), but I know what you mean.

Guess I better stick to shooting, know more about that ;)

You are probably right for the time being

Julian

RobStubbs wrote:I don't know the stats but it appears 400's in womens air rifle are more common, so perhaps that's the next candidate for some serious changes (?). Which would obviously equally apply to mens air rifle.

I don't think there has ever been a WC or above with more than one 400 and only 9 Ladies have achieved it at that level.

As for Mens AR, I think it's only ever been one 600 at world level.

Occasional maximum scores are good publicity but in themselves present no challenge to the difficulty of the sport.

That doesn't mean to say though that standing rifle shooters are safe from dramatic changes in the 2009 rules, but that's pure speculation based on the clothing "debate" from 3-4 years ago.

Two 600s in men's air rifle (last one was in the International match in Munich there just recently) and 13 in women's air rifle (again, last one win the Munich match). I don't think they need to be doing something as drastic as banning trousers just yet, especially not with the medical side effects of doing that kind of thing.

Prone shooting though, well, that's been so tight for years now that the winner is effectively chosen by lot. You get eight guys, all of whom have the technical equipment and ability to keep their shots in the ten ring during the finals, and you find them split by .1 or .2 of a point. That's not a skill difference, that's down to the noise level in terms of statistics, especially given the manufacturing tolerances for .22lr ammunition shot over 50m.

But you can't change gear used in standing and prone based on prone scores alone. So maybe it's time to try something new and score all prone matches to one decimal point for the qualifying round as well as the finals?

Sparks wrote:Two 600s in men's air rifle (last one was in the International match in Munich there just recently) and 13 in women's air rifle (again, last one win the Munich match).

Yes I do realise that there have been 400/600s in other "Minor" matches but I was only refering to World Cups and above, those where you can set a World Record.

David Levene wrote:Yes I do realise that there have been 400/600s in other "Minor" matches but I was only refering to World Cups and above, those where you can set a World Record.

Ah, my error. Still though, it's not at the level where we need to ban trousers just yet...

Well, If in the future clothing doesn't become more restrictive and scores continue to go up, I think there will be a point when they switch completely to electronic scoring for matches ( Most big matches are already like that). This allows for two major differences that can set two 600's apart from each other

1.) You can add tenths to the score. I think it'll be a very long time before anyone shoots a 654.0 in a match if the ISSF does add tenths.

2.) The target size can be reduced. The ten "dot" could just be an imaginary point in space in the center of the target and the score can be determined by the distance from the center. The distance can be changed to where a "10.9" by today's standard is only a (insert random lower score here: like 10.4).

There will be a point where the human limit sets in. You know like the "3" minute mile :) I think were pretty close to it now in air rifle because nobody shoots 600's on a very regular basis. But with kids starting shooting younger and younger, you never know what may come from the next generation.

Will

Will,
You probably gain nothing by making the ten any smaller because the pellet is so much bigger anyway. I imagine the next step could be outward scoring. It is however a big change so it may be something that is deemed too complicated to implement.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:Will,
You probably gain nothing by making the ten any smaller because the pellet is so much bigger anyway. I imagine the next step could be outward scoring. It is however a big change so it may be something that is deemed too complicated to implement.

Rob.

The ten is already outwardly scored so making it smaller will make a difference. The easiets thing to do is for all international events and Olympics is to score the whole thing to the tenth as they are all shot on electronic targets anyways. By doing this it does not really effect the lower level shooters and drive away anyone who doesn't want to out lay more money for new equipment and also maintains the used equipmnt market for lower level shooters. Changing pants and jackets is really another nail in the shooting coffin, lots of people wil not go out and spend money on brand new shooitng gear and because a rule change makes all current gear obsolete there is no used gear.

Richard H wrote: The ten is already outwardly scored so making it smaller will make a difference. The easiets thing to do is for all international events and Olympics is to score the whole thing to the tenth as they are all shot on electronic targets anyways. By doing this it does not really effect the lower level shooters and drive away anyone who doesn't want to out lay more money for new equipment and also maintains the used equipmnt market for lower level shooters. Changing pants and jackets is really another nail in the shooting coffin, lots of people wil not go out and spend money on brand new shooitng gear and because a rule change makes all current gear obsolete there is no used gear.

Richard,
No, the ten in air rifle is inwardly gauged although an outward gauge is used to determine the decimal scoring of the ten. Any shot touching the ten ring (or dot) is a 10. Outward gauging would have to fit into a circle thus giving greater flexibility to further reduce the 10 ring than making a dot any smaller (it's small enough now trying to score the blinking cards).

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:

Richard H wrote: The ten is already outwardly scored so making it smaller will make a difference. The easiets thing to do is for all international events and Olympics is to score the whole thing to the tenth as they are all shot on electronic targets anyways. By doing this it does not really effect the lower level shooters and drive away anyone who doesn't want to out lay more money for new equipment and also maintains the used equipmnt market for lower level shooters. Changing pants and jackets is really another nail in the shooting coffin, lots of people wil not go out and spend money on brand new shooitng gear and because a rule change makes all current gear obsolete there is no used gear.

Richard,
No, the ten in air rifle is inwardly gauged although an outward gauge is used to determine the decimal scoring of the ten. Any shot touching the ten ring (or dot) is a 10. Outward gauging would have to fit into a circle thus giving greater flexibility to further reduce the 10 ring than making a dot any smaller (it's small enough now trying to score the blinking cards).

Rob.

Sir I beleive you are mistaken

6.7.15.4 inward gauge is used to score INNER TENS

6.7.15.5 outward gauge is to be used to score 10m air rifle targets.

You're using the wrong gauge is why you find it so hard to score them ;)

Nonius gauge is use to score the decimals (if not on electronic targets)

I sounds like you are talking about an over lay which is a scoring aid and not the offical way to score a target. The Outward plug is the only official way to score them and if it clearly hits or touches the dot it is a ten if you can't tell you get out your outward 4.5 mm plug and check it properly. if you can't see the line on the ring its out and if you can its in.

Richard,
I was refering to the scoring of tens, not decimal scores (see above where I stated an outward gauge was used for that). The ten is inwardly scored which is what I meant to say, rather than gauged. It is not outwardly scored as you stated. You're getting your gauging and scoring confused.

That was pertinent to the discussion about how to make shooting perfect scores more difficult which was why I said switch to outward scoring.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:Richard,
I was refering to the scoring of tens, not decimal scores (see above where I stated an outward gauge was used for that). The ten is inwardly scored which is what I meant to say, rather than gauged. It is not outwardly scored as you stated. You're getting your gauging and scoring confused.

That was pertinent to the discussion about how to make shooting perfect scores more difficult which was why I said switch to outward scoring.

Rob.

Your the one that is confused read the rules, yes you can look at it and usually tell if it is a ten or not but the rules my friend clearly state that it is outwardly gauged so in reallity it is outwardly scored no matter how you want to twist the language.

Richard H wrote:Your the one that is confused read the rules, yes you can look at it and usually tell if it is a ten or not but the rules my friend clearly state that it is outwardly gauged so in reallity it is outwardly scored no matter how you want to twist the language.

I think the confusion is probably caused by the fact that, here in the UK, we have a 25 yard rifle event that is true outward scoring. If the shot touches the line you get the lower value. Because of that, events like 10m AR have become known as "inward scoring, outward gauging".
It is further confused by the ISSF rules where the text does not clarify whether it is an "outward, scoring gauge" or an "outward scoring, gauge". The rule headings do however have the word "OUTWARD" in capital letters.

I do think however that we all know what the rules mean so common-sense will prevail.

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:Your the one that is confused read the rules, yes you can look at it and usually tell if it is a ten or not but the rules my friend clearly state that it is outwardly gauged so in reallity it is outwardly scored no matter how you want to twist the language.

I think the confusion is probably caused by the fact that, here in the UK, we have a 25 yard rifle event that is true outward scoring. If the shot touches the line you get the lower value. Because of that, events like 10m AR have become known as "inward scoring, outward gauging".
It is further confused by the ISSF rules where the text does not clarify whether it is an "outward, scoring gauge" or an "outward scoring, gauge". The rule headings do however have the word "OUTWARD" in capital letters.

I do think however that we all know what the rules mean so common-sense will prevail.

Thanks David I now get what Mr. Stubbs is talking about, it is clear we are talking about two different things. Using outward plugs the ten can be made infintely small as the free rifle target actualy has a virtual ten as the dot is just for ease of scoring ny eye and is not truely the size of the ten. Still the easiest and least troublesome method to fix the problem (not that I think it is a problem) is to score international events ie WC's and Olympics to the tenth. no one is going to shoot 40, 50, 60 or 70 10.9's.