TargetTalk

hi all!

I am a air rifle shooter with fwb 700 alu.

I was here in target talk as a newbie in air rifle shooting 1 year back.

Now i shoot around 593 on 600.

ya i know u may say its great, but there are still lot of things to be learnt and applied. For now i seek your help to know how to shoot between 2 heart beats? Some of u may say why? Rather than explaining it, I say i want to.. so is there a way to feel the pulse beat somewhere on my body during shooting may be a way that i can learn to develop that skill to hear my own heart beat..

Anybody with ideas please share your knowledge.
At 593, i know i am shooting most of my shots between heart beats, but how can i consiously learn to shoot between the beats?

Thanks,
Rajesh M
bangalore, India

What is your pulse rate? Do you shoot with plugs or muffs? I can hear my pulse in my ear, when plugged and muffed very easily. With just the foam plugs not as easy.

hi snapy...
i am a 3-position and air rifle shooter. my primary sports are running and cycling, so my vitals are very different from an average person's. my heart rate in prone usually drops to about 30-32 bpm so i have about two seconds between beats to fire. in standing it floats around 40 bpm. i don't usually make a conscious effort to fire between the beats; like you said, usually it just happens instinctively. i will tell you though, that a lowered heart rate helps a great deal and most world class shooters will try to stay fit especially during the season. it helps your breathing sequence as well: you can hold air in your lungs for a longer period without the carbon dioxide sitting dead in there.

anyway, you could practice this technique at home. it only takes a little concentration to realize when your heart is beating. i would say it's more like you're feeling it rather than you're listening to it. put your feet up on a desk and watch them twitch after every beat. it literally moves your whole body. when you're in position, everything you've done up to several hours before will affect the heart rate. if you're nervous your heart rate will skyrocket and cause trembling in the extremities. even eating the wrong thing at the wrong time can cause an upset.

i've experimented and i'm just content with keeping things ideal and not truly listening to it... i tried listening to the heart beat but i find it difficult to also concentrate on the target at the same time. if you have a good multi-tasking concentration then yes, most definitely try it. again, try it first when it is easier to notice... lay in bed at night with the lights off and nothing around you making noise. it is much easier to notice than at the range. then try it in the middle of the day, at work, somewhere with a moderate noise level. then try it while listening to music through headphones... you have to tune out the music to do it.

Stall the digger there a moment lads.
Complete newbie to 593 in one year?
Are you kidding me?
What kind of training programme were you using and how often were you training?!

Re: Sparks.
A friend of mine went from total "550" hobby newbie, to amazing 597 (comp) 598 (practice) in less than a year. Practiced 2-3 hours (120-150 shots) 5 days a week, plus running 3-4 days. He also had a full-time job at the same time, so... everything is possible. Wish I had the same discipline :)

That's not that surprising observer, I'm more wondering how someone goes from "never seen a firearm before" to 597 in one year. I've trained kids who went from nada to 527 in four months (training for an hour to two hours a week and with a christmas break), but 597... well, the scores aren't linear, they're logarithmic, you know?

xcrunner8k wrote:hi snapy...
...I would say it's more like you're feeling it rather than you're listening to it.

If you consider that your heartrate will eventually skyrocket at some point (to, say, 180 perhaps) then "conscious" control isn't going to cope; after all, if a heartbeat is happening every 0.3 seconds, and your likely best reaction time is 0.2 seconds, you're aiming for a very small window.

Best thing is to watch your sights. If you can't see them moving at all, then your heart isn't making much of a difference. You may feel your heartbeat, in which case, use the feeling to time the shot. You're feeling for a rhythm: thump, thump, thump-bang-thump, thump

If your sights are bouncing around like a five-year-old on a sugar high, then this shot obviously means a lot to you. Trying to take the shot "deliberately" is going to destroy your control loop - and a vicious circle of bad shot / bad mental state / bad shot beckons. Instead, try trusting your training. Let the shot happen "automagically", and trust all of those hours on the range. You'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.

Use the Force, Luke

Martin wrote:

xcrunner8k wrote:hi snapy...
...I would say it's more like you're feeling it rather than you're listening to it.

If you consider that your heartrate will eventually skyrocket at some point (to, say, 180 perhaps) then "conscious" control isn't going to cope; after all, if a heartbeat is happening every 0.3 seconds, and your likely best reaction time is 0.2 seconds, you're aiming for a very small window.

Best thing is to watch your sights. If you can't see them moving at all, then your heart isn't making much of a difference. You may feel your heartbeat, in which case, use the feeling to time the shot. You're feeling for a rhythm: thump, thump, thump-bang-thump, thump

If your sights are bouncing around like a five-year-old on a sugar high, then this shot obviously means a lot to you. Trying to take the shot "deliberately" is going to destroy your control loop - and a vicious circle of bad shot / bad mental state / bad shot beckons. Instead, try trusting your training. Let the shot happen "automagically", and trust all of those hours on the range. You'll be pleasantly surprised at the results.

Use the Force, Luke

Why would his hear rate skyrocket to 180 bpm, I don't think he's planning on doing any anerobic activities while shooting? Many shooters have resting heart rates 60 bpm and below which gives them 1 second or more between heartbeats.

Richard H wrote: Why would his hear rate skyrocket to 180 bpm, I don't think he's planning on doing any anerobic activities while shooting? Many shooters have resting heart rates 60 bpm and below which gives them 1 second or more between heartbeats.

To paraphrase a former World Champion and Olympic bronze and silver medallist:

"If you're on the firing point at the Olympics, in the final, in first place, your heart is racing".

Backed up by a similar conversation with the bloke who beat him to Gold in both Olympics....

Martin wrote:
To paraphrase a former World Champion and Olympic bronze and silver medallist:

"If you're on the firing point at the Olympics, in the final, in first place, your heart is racing".

Backed up by a similar conversation with the bloke who beat him to Gold in both Olympics....

There's no reason it should. These guys train for that and that includes mental training for just such situations, a 50% increase I can believe. Plus if your heart rate goes from 40 - 180 just from shooting you're likely to be going out in a body bag sooner rather than later !

Rob.

Martin wrote:

Richard H wrote: Why would his hear rate skyrocket to 180 bpm, I don't think he's planning on doing any anerobic activities while shooting? Many shooters have resting heart rates 60 bpm and below which gives them 1 second or more between heartbeats.

To paraphrase a former World Champion and Olympic bronze and silver medallist:

"If you're on the firing point at the Olympics, in the final, in first place, your heart is racing".

Backed up by a similar conversation with the bloke who beat him to Gold in both Olympics....

If their hearts were doing 180 bpm then they really should put down the fish and chip and get some more training in. I assure you that no one in the last Olympic shooting events had a heart beat anywhere near 180.

I think they were telling you a little anecdotal story not to be taken literally, like their stomach was in their throat ( it really isn't in their throat it just feesl that way).

Richard H wrote: If their hearts were doing 180 bpm then they really should put down the fish and chip and get some more training in. I assure you that no one in the last Olympic shooting events had a heart beat anywhere near 180.

Well, I've competed at ISSF World Cups, and on occasion my heart rate has gone up to a fair old rate (from a resting rate of below 60). Not for the whole match, not uncontrollably, but at points it has certainly soared. I defy you to go into a tie-breaker shot at the end of a final, for a national championship title, and not feel your heart pounding away inside your chest at somewhat more than resting rate.

Assuring us that no-one at the Olympics got excited is a rather confident statement, and I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this one.

Richard H wrote:I think they were telling you a little anecdotal story not to be taken literally, like their stomach was in their throat ( it really isn't in their throat it just feesl that way).

Well, the Olympic PSK double Gold medallist (narrows it down to a field of 1) was talking about perceptions of movement, but was also assuring me that attempting to maintain an icy self-control was doomed to failure. Better to have a coping strategy, as he did.

I've heard the heart rate comment backed up by a primary coach to an international team, and by a World Cup finalist. Specifically, elevated heart rate. Yes, your perception is that your muzzle movement increases, but that's not to say that in reality your heart is still working at resting rate.

Interestingly, I saw an interview with a Formula 1 driver on the subject of autogenics; they had done a lot of work on self-control, and found that while it was possible in training, on a real Grand Prix it was unrealistic - and as this was the McLaren pair (Coulthard and Hakkinen?) who won the constructors championship, they weren't also-rans.

Martin wrote:

Richard H wrote: If their hearts were doing 180 bpm then they really should put down the fish and chip and get some more training in. I assure you that no one in the last Olympic shooting events had a heart beat anywhere near 180.

Well, I've competed at ISSF World Cups, and on occasion my heart rate has gone up to a fair old rate (from a resting rate of below 60). Not for the whole match, not uncontrollably, but at points it has certainly soared. I defy you to go into a tie-breaker shot at the end of a final, for a national championship title, and not feel your heart pounding away inside your chest at somewhat more than resting rate.

Assuring us that no-one at the Olympics got excited is a rather confident statement, and I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this one.

Richard H wrote:I think they were telling you a little anecdotal story not to be taken literally, like their stomach was in their throat ( it really isn't in their throat it just feesl that way).

Well, the Olympic PSK double Gold medallist (narrows it down to a field of 1) was talking about perceptions of movement, but was also assuring me that attempting to maintain an icy self-control was doomed to failure. Better to have a coping strategy, as he did.

I've heard the heart rate comment backed up by a primary coach to an international team, and by a World Cup finalist. Specifically, elevated heart rate. Yes, your perception is that your muzzle movement increases, but that's not to say that in reality your heart is still working at resting rate.

Interestingly, I saw an interview with a Formula 1 driver on the subject of autogenics; they had done a lot of work on self-control, and found that while it was possible in training, on a real Grand Prix it was unrealistic - and as this was the McLaren pair (Coulthard and Hakkinen?) who won the constructors championship, they weren't also-rans.

I am confident that no shooters heart rate was anywhere near 180 BPM while competing. Maybe the sprinters were that high, You don't seem to get the point 180 BPM is approx. the maximun heart rate for a health 30 year old male.

Yes your heart rate may elevate 10, 20, or even 30 BPM but how do you get that as being equated to the 180 BPM that you posted. If your resting heart rate is between 40-60 BPM that puts you between 50-90 BPM a long 50% of the rate that you claim.

On the concept 2 rower all out I only get up to 178 BPM and I'll tell you there's no way I'm shooting like that, I suggest you go out and do some excerise and get your heart rate up there then come back and tell me the Olympic level shooters just standing there have heart rates anywhere near 180 BPM. I'm sure you'll have some anecdotal folksy story to share but I dont' think you have a clue what you're talkibg about.

Secondly I suggest you read my post before you put words into my mouth, where did I "Assuring us that no-one at the Olympics got excited is a rather confident statement, and I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts on this one." Nowhere thats where, maybe thats why you have these mistaken beliefs. My thoughts on this are 1. you don't fully read what people write and 2. you probably don't full listen to what people tell you so you don't fully understand what people write or tell you. Before you get upset, I some times do that myself as do most people, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

Richard H wrote:On the concept 2 rower all out I only get up to 178 BPM and I'll tell you there's no way I'm shooting like that, I suggest you go out and do some excerise and get your heart rate up there then come back and tell me the Olympic level shooters just standing there have heart rates anywhere near 180 BPM. I'm sure you'll have some anecdotal folksy story to share but I dont' think you have a clue what you're talkibg about.....

My thoughts on this are 1. you don't fully read what people write and 2. you probably don't full listen to what people tell you so you don't fully understand what people write or tell you.

Before you get upset, I some times do that myself as do most people, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

Hey, your opinion, I'm just a voice on the internet. Feel free to ignore me.

I tend to wear a heart-rate monitor when exercising; when playing football (what y'all call soccer) I can push my heart rate up to 180 for short periods; it averages 165-170 if I'm pushing it. I know exactly what those rates feel like.

I'll agree that I was wrong to use the figure "180" - it was a throwaway figure, and a nice round number to illustrate my point. I know exactly what it feels like to have that heart rate, and at times in a match I've had the same feeling.

Please forgive me, and replace "180" with "150" or "140". If rereading my original post with those figures makes it believable, then carry on. Please don't let a careless use of a number damage the point I was trying to make.

As for "These guys train for that and that includes mental training for just such situations", please explain how you can realistically replicate the feeling of being in first place in an Olympic Final? You can work on your visualisation skills, do all the mental training, but there's a difference between "training" and "the real thing". Good training will prepare you, but it can't duplicate it (yes, I've tried; I could achieve parts but not the whole)

In my case, it was a prone final in the Commonwealth Games. Yes, I controlled things, but when you hear the words "there is a tie" in reference to your firing point, and you're not sure how close you are to a medal, your heart rate takes a leap.

Anyway, here you go, folksy anecdote (I prefer illustrative story). At a squad training camp last winter in South Africa, we trained 50m PSK while wearing heart rate monitors. It was late in the day, 30C+, humid, and when training in the standing position, our heart rates were running about 80. I was rather embarrassed, and starting to worry about my fitness, when I realised that we were over 5000' above sea level.

"These guys train for that and that includes mental training for just such situations"

As I said before which post did I say the above in. Again I didn't so I really don't have to explain it or defend it (I do agree with it though) it was actually posted by your fellow countryman Mr. Stubbs.

By the way what is Olympic PSK? Never heard the acronmy PSK other than in regards to a digital data format. PSK= 3 P ie 3 postion = Prone kneeling and standing?

Richard H wrote:"These guys train for that and that includes mental training for just such situations"

As I said before which post did I say the above in. Again I didn't so I really don't have to explain it or defend it (I do agree with it though) it was actually posted by your fellow countryman Mr. Stubbs.

I know, I should have made that clear. My apologies for not doing so - posting as a guest means I can't edit [note to self: get account]

My point remains that while you can train for a high-pressure situation (and would be foolish not to) that's not to say that the training will mean that you succeed in the aim of remaining utterly calm during that once-or-twice-in-a-lifetime moment that is the pinnacle of several years of effort and sacrifice.

In other words, how do you cope if you can't get as calm as you would like for those 45 or 75 seconds you have available for that shot in the final? Simple, you train for it, so that you can cope if it happens.

Richard H wrote:By the way what is Olympic PSK? Never heard the acronmy PSK other than in regards to a digital data format. PSK= 3 P ie 3 postion = Prone kneeling and standing?

Yup. Prone Standing and Kneeling, aka Three-Position.

Here's a quote re heart rate from Eric Uptagrafft from his interview on the pilkguns website.

"But for me prone is a very felt position. What’s it feel like? ‘Cause when my position is right and I normally get a little bit of adrenaline in these matches but if my position is right it doesn’t matter. You know, like the World Cup last month, I shot a 600; I had adrenaline through the entire match. It wasn’t a 150 pulse like it was in the Olympics in ’96, it was kind of a steady probably 100-120 beats a minute, little bit of anxiety but when the position is right…"

The link is http://www.pilkguns.com/intug.shtml

Whilst I'd hate to get in between you guys ;-) - I do think mental control over nerves is far more acheivable than you suggest Martin. Martin, you shot in the CWG finals and how much of your training is devoted solely to the mental aspects ? Now I've never been close to that level but nerves are a relatively common aspect of shooting. That said it is possible to control them and that can be done at any level (IMHO).

You only get nerves or anxiety because you let yourself think about the situation you're in rather than the process you want to follow. That is therefore a 'natural' response to what you let yourself believe to be an anxious situation. The skill is to learn how to tell yourself that you are shooting, just like on any other ocassion irrespective of the magnitude of the event - the process is after all identical and you know you can do that bit otherwise you wouldn't be their in the first place.

Some would say that until you achieve that level of anxiety control, you will never win gold at the olympics, but that's a step too far for me to make.

Rob.

P.S. Note in the post above, the shooter is just guessing what his heart rate was and what it feels like and actually is are quite possibly a long way apart.

Have a read of this article on the Scatt website

http://www.scatt.com/articles.htm#Pulse

RobStubbs wrote:Whilst I'd hate to get in between you guys ;-) - I do think mental control over nerves is far more acheivable than you suggest Martin. Martin, you shot in the CWG finals and how much of your training is devoted solely to the mental aspects ?

A fair amount. Sports psych support was always at the top of my "really want" list, from the 1998 Games onwards, but it was in the 02-06 CWG cycle that we got some really good individual support. Prior to that, it was mostly team support and self-help (we've got a fair few of the recommended texts sitting around the house).

I'm reasonably good at visualisation; I found myself using photos and videos of the range (from the CSF2005 championships) to put myself "there". For his sins, I found myself sharing a two-man room with our squad psych for the duration of the Games :) and I most certainly use visualisation during matches. Not shot-to-shot (there may not be time) but at natural or unnatural breaks.

Please don't believe that because I say "have a coping strategy, because at some point your composure will weaken" that I feel that mental control is difficult to achieve. You can make a huge difference to your performance, to your ability to cope with a range of situations, to your ability to cope with the unforeseen.

I just feel that it's unrealistic to say to a novice shooter "you will/must control your nerves 100% at all times" because the implication is that if they don't, then a) they are already failing, and b) they are in uncharted territory.

RobStubbs wrote:Now I've never been close to that level but nerves are a relatively common aspect of shooting. That said it is possible to control them and that can be done at any level (IMHO).

Yes, nerves are common. Yes, they are (mostly) controllable. But there will be some point at which you realise "hold on, I've been shooting an awfully long sequence of bulls, I'm on for a National Record / National Championship / International Championship here". There will be a burst of adrenalin, you control yourself, but you'd be lying to yourself if you said you felt exactly as you had before that realisation.

It's the wonderful thing about having had a coach who has been a world champion / world and Olympic record holder / multiple Olympic medallist. When he says "trust me, there will come a point when you will feel like you're shooting at a moving target" then you know that he has been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

The important thing IMHO is how you cope, how you handle it. If you have trained to see "what happens when my heart is beating fast, and I'm tired at the end of a match", then you will know that you can still shoot good tens. There's nothing like knowing that you just put your last five shots in the bull, having realised you were up for a 598, but (mostly) controlled yourself.

It's one of the reasons why I find that "No Fear" logo clothing amusing. Anyone who says that they aren't ever scared is either unadventurous, a liar, or a nutter; and I've met plenty of soldiers who were perfectly willing to admit to fear, but still did their job on operations.