TargetTalk

I took a quick tour around the Walther plant in Darnstadt, just on the Northside of Ulm, Germany yesterday. Take a quick look around at the factory and assembly areas. Many of the machines were made by Walther itself to accomplish tasks unique to their gun trade, and these machines contain the Waltehr banner as well. A super addition to the Walther factory is the Walther museum. A true show piece with displays of Watlher models and progression through the years. And at the last a room with multiple variations of so many of the Walther guns. I could stay days in there .
http://pilk-uns.com/walther/index.htm


If you want to see these sights yourself, eat lunch at the Walther factory and so much more, come with us on our Germany Airgun tour in October. See details here.
http://www.pilkguns.com/ptg02it.htm

The factory sparkles with clean - you could eat off the floor.

Scott I sent you an email regarding the down payment for the trip. I know you're busy but if you could let me know I'd appreciate it.

Richard, I know Rhonda said something about some Canadians going, but she will have to reply from the office, I will not be home until next week

Now I have an understanding of why these guns costs as much as they do.

Great photos.

Mikey

Wow! Thank you Scott!! What an awesome collection. I didn't see an LG51/52/53 bunch though. It would be nice to go and check it out myself.

Mikey wrote:Now I have an understanding of why these guns costs as much as they do.

Great photos.

Mikey

Actually, what you can't see there is the biggest cost factor: German labor rates and the Euro/$ exchange rate.

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Actually, what you can't see there is the biggest cost factor: German labor rates and the Euro/$ exchange rate.[/quote]


All you have to do is look at the quality of the workmanship to see the reason why the labor rates are what they are. I doubt Walther has any say in the Euro/US exchange rates.

Anonymous wrote: All you have to do is look at the quality of the workmanship to see the reason why the labor rates are what they are. .

I don't think so. German labor rates (actually labors costs) are as high as they are primarily because Germany, as a society, has decided that their government is going to take care of a lot of things that are left to individuals and private enterprise here in the US. Pensions and healthcare are among the two. American businesses have a lot more flexibility to control those expenses, since the government is much less involved.

As for the exchange rate, you are right, Walther has no control over it. That still doesn't change the fact that the Euro/$ rate is a significant factor in the retail price we pay.

Seems to me that govt subsidizing of these costs would LOWER German labor costs - your explanation makes no sense.

Anonymous wrote:Seems to me that govt subsidizing of these costs would LOWER German labor costs - your explanation makes no sense.

One word: Taxes.

Still makes little sense Nicole.

What difference does it make whether Walther is paying the costs of pensions and healthcare directly from its gross receipts or if Walther is paying higher taxes because the German government is paying those expenses for them. Either way, Walther would pass the costs on to consumers just like American manufacturers do.

I see no cogent reasoning that would suggest we pay Walther more because the government subsidizes cetain benefits that American employers traditionally have more control over. Unless of course you believe the German government is much more extravagant and generous than Walther would be if it couldnt rely on the government subsidies.

Judging by the state of our own abysmal health care system which an appalling number of Americans cant afford and the loss of pensions by thousands of employees of United Airlines, Enron (and the list goes on and on), the Germans may have a better idea.

The way I look at it is this - take the price of a German (or any other euro) competition firearm and compare it to the price of a comparable US gun IF YOU CAN FIND ONE. Please dont try and compare a SW41 to a Walther or FWB or a Pardini. You could drive a Panzer tank division thru the difference between those two.

For example. how about a basic 1911 accurized\customized by a well known pistol smith and which is suitable for BE matches. With ortho grips - easily $1800-2200.

In my opinion, we pay Walther no more for high end competition handguns than we would pay a US manufacturer for a comparable product if such a domestic manufacturer existed.

Anonymous wrote:Still makes little sense Nicole.

I wasn't trying to offer an opinion on how Walther guns compare to American guns nor on whether universal health care is a good idea nor even on whether German wages really are higher than in the US. I was simply trying to fill in the missing part of the argument.

Jose had argued that German wages are higher because the government controls health care and retirement and has taken away some ability of businesses to control these costs themselves. You asked how that could matter.

The answer is that it depends on whether government programs tend to be more generous than businesses would offer on their own (and it sounds like you'd concede they probably are, especially in today's environment where American workers are more frequently getting nothing!) and, also, how the government decides to pay for all that. If they pay for it through taxes and levy many of them on businesses (which, I'm under the impression they do), there's your answer. It's worth mentioning that European governments also tend to push labor costs up more than in the US by workplace regulations, e.g., mandated minimum vacation time, requiring more window offices, etc.

It's not necessarily bad, but it is different.

The old Walthers were superb , it's a shame the new stuff doesn't have the same mojo . A Walther LP53 was my first good pistol , I wish they would reissue a few of them .

Chris

Anonymous wrote:Seems to me that govt subsidizing of these costs would LOWER German labor costs - your explanation makes no sense.

If my explanation makes no sense to you, then take a class in manufacturing economics.

And no, the Germans have no better idea when it comes to pensions and health care. Our system, based on the free market, self-corrects. Their system, based on central control and taxation, will collapse under its own weight. The lower birth rates of Germany and most European nations is an early leading indicator to what will happen to their social safety net, based almost exclusively on taxes paid by businesses.

Anonymous wrote:Still makes little sense Nicole.

What difference does it make whether Walther is paying the costs of pensions and healthcare directly from its gross receipts or if Walther is paying higher taxes because the German government is paying those expenses for them. .

It makes a WORLD of difference. One you can control, the other is controlled for you.

Furthermore, if your theory were correct, Japanese cars made in the US could not exceed the quality of German cars made in Germany because American workers in Japanese companies are not only paid less, on average, than German autoworkers, but also less than American autoworkers working for GM, Ford, and DC. Since, as you imply, one has to pay tope shelf wages to get top shelf quality.

But they do.

The Walther Banner cut-outs on the chair backs in the lunch room! I didn't notice any photos of their testing range. Is this done on site? I plan on seeing this in person on the October tour.

Best Regards,
Slo cat

Jose Rossy wrote:But they do.

You'd rate a Honda as being better than a Mercedes-Benz?

And I don't think that free market economics should have much to do with healthcare systems. Ireland's in the midst of going from Berlin towards Boston, to use one of our politican's catchphrases, in healthcare and right now we have hundreds of patients (a significant percentage given the size of our population) on trolleys in corridors for long durations, and huge problems with basic things like MRSA (because of cleanliness problems once half the cleaning staff were let go so the hospital would spend less money).
For us, we're seeing our healthcare system seriously comprimised by free market economics. Which isn't to say that the red tape of the Berlin system isn't onerous; just that I'd rather spend a day filling out forms and bored, than a day on a trolley in a corridor with a serious trauma and no CT scans, a junior doctor who's already been up for 36 hours and isn't heading home till tomorrow, and wondering if the wound will become infected with a simple infection that will then kill me.

PS. Anyone seen the original topic? :D

Sparks wrote:You'd rate a Honda as being better than a Mercedes-Benz?

This is a yes or no question?

I think of "better" as a word that could have lots of different meanings. One is a lower defect rate in design, materials or manufacturing. Another is more overall luxuriousness. I thought Jose was talking about the former; you appear to be thinking about the latter.

Sparks wrote:
You'd rate a Honda as being better than a Mercedes-Benz?

Using every objective measure of quality, not snob appeal, absolutely yes.

Sparks wrote: For us, we're seeing our healthcare system seriously comprimised by free market economics. Which isn't to say that the red tape of the Berlin system isn't onerous; just that I'd rather spend a day filling out forms and bored, than a day on a trolley in a corridor with a serious trauma and no CT scans, a junior doctor who's already been up for 36 hours and isn't heading home till tomorrow, and wondering if the wound will become infected with a simple infection that will then kill me.

Maybe you guys haven't figured it out yet. Here in the US I have access to emergency and routine healthcare with nary a wait, and with maybe 5 mins worth of paperwork on the first visit. I pay $15 per visit and I can go see any specialist I need. If the first one I choose is too busy, I find someone else. And I don't need an OK from any government bureaucracy to get what I need. The network of doctors and hospitals on my health insurance is so large as to be unlimited for all practical purposes.

Anyway, good luck.