TargetTalk

nmondal:
To the above. Bad light on the target usually shifts the middle hit, the dispersion does not increase much. If you do not know the cause of the incorrect shots, your pictures cannot be evaluated objectively. They and those shots that have a good grouping can be affected by an error and can have the same cause. The causes can be different, but they need to be clarified. White paper or a vertical and horizontal line can help you with the analysis. Smooth starting and especially the follow through. It is very useful to use a Scatt device. It is not very appropriate to train systematically with a sharp shot on a normal competition target, unless you have a perfectly seduced shooting technique. This method will only reinforce bad habits, which are difficult to remove later. It's a long distance run.
The position and successful hit in the target is the result of many factors and in your case we only see the hit ..... sorry

"Chicken finger" pops up in all manner of discussion, as well it should given what a huge problem it can be. This is not precisely the same situation, but perhaps some poor fool may find my experience helpful.

Years ago a shoulder injury (which I thought was going to be the end of my brilliant career) caused minor nerve damage and some loss of fine motor control in my shooting hand. Unable to consistently hold on a first stage and gently squeeze through the second, I readjusted my trigger to a single stage with 520 g let-off.

I can't honestly say that I'm shooting as well as I did pre-injury, but it has allowed me to stay in the game and occasionally shoot a target that makes me feel like I haven't lost it entirely.

In order to sort things out efficiently, it is enormously helpful if you can call your shots. If you see that the pistol has wobbled off center when the pistol fires, and the shot goes where you expect it to, your sights are probably OK. If you can't call your shots, you are probably losing focus on your front sight.

When my eyes were a lot younger, I could often tell the difference between a 3:00 and a 9:00 ten. Nowadays, I can usually call my shots within one "hour", and 1 scoring ring.

If you shoot a 7, and have no idea how it got there, you either aren't watching your front sight closely, or you are disturbing the sights at the last instance with some sort of fast twitch, flinch, or trigger jerk. Getting a "surprise shot" will help eliminate those issues.

"...it is enormously helpful if you can call your shots."

Yup, I do it all the time. "Come back, shot!" That's the easy part. Getting them to actually do it - that's another story.

....you either aren't watching your front sight closely, or you are disturbing the sights at the last....

A beginner's mistake is to change the attention of the eye from the front sight to the target in the last phase of the shot, it is possible to help by holding the pistol in the intended target area for about 1 second after the shot.

pbrejsa wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:22 pm

....you either aren't watching your front sight closely, or you are disturbing the sights at the last....

A beginner's mistake is to change the attention of the eye from the front sight to the target in the last phase of the shot, it is possible to help by holding the pistol in the intended target area for about 1 second after the shot.

If that's what's going on, a predictable result will be misses high & right, generally around 1:00. If holding past the shot is to be of any value, there can be no conscious - or otherwise - putting the sights back on target if they've wandered.

The movement of the sights cannot be stopped. If we consciously try it, fatigue and tremor will soon occur. We can only slow down the movement of the sights, if possible, as small as possible. When the optimum is approaching, it must not be disturbed by the action of the finger on the trigger. The action of the trigger finger can be compared to the action of the foot when driving the car on the clutch and on the brake. The movement and operation of the trigger must be practiced and well-developed and respond to eye stimuli. That is, when the brain receives information about the moment of the shot, it must already occur independently. For accurate shooting and independent and smooth firing, it helps train a standard pistol of the 20 and 10 second series. An excellent training is also holding the aiming pistol in the aiming area for 60 seconds or more. During this time, carefully monitor the sights or gradually add the movement of the trigger finger. A real shot simply has to occur at a time when the shooter's entire body is approaching maximum stability and the pistol is a direct extension of the hand and independent of the movement of the finger on the trigger. This is the only way to most likely hit the point where the sights are pointing at the moment. It must be taken into account that what the eye sees is actually a history delayed by 0.1 to 0.3 seconds. Which is a completely fatal time period for a shot, especially for a fast-moving hand.

^ Thats exactly right, especially the time delay, 0.3s is a long time.

In precision you have to see the shot forming and time the trigger, in timed fire you have to make the shot form.

"But I hit the trigger just as I saw the sights align!"
Most likely you were 0.2-0.4 seconds later.

Thanks a lot guys.
Some improvement happened.
Thanks to the eye patch!
Now the move to left and right are getting pretty minimised!
Also.. fixed the trigger location and the grip - improvement shows - the trouble now is "Up and down movement".



The shot is going above and below more - than left and right. Earlier I had a trouble with left and right, thanks to all of your help,
that is ..not the primary concern now!
Thank you all again.

pbrejsa wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:22 pm

....you either aren't watching your front sight closely, or you are disturbing the sights at the last....

A beginner's mistake is to change the attention of the eye from the front sight to the target in the last phase of the shot, it is possible to help by holding the pistol in the intended target area for about 1 second after the shot.

This is happening to me! This is happening ! wow.. that is a thing!

nmondal wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:32 am Thanks a lot guys.
Some improvement happened.
Thanks to the eye patch!
Now the move to left and right are getting pretty minimised!
Also.. fixed the trigger location and the grip - improvement shows - the trouble now is "Up and down movement".



The shot is going above and below more - than left and right. Earlier I had a trouble with left and right, thanks to all of your help,
that is ..not the primary concern now!
Thank you all again.

Left and right is often an indication of an inconsistent grip. ALL of the pressure should be aligned with the barrel. Any sideways pressure from your fingertips or thumb introduces a variable that can push the pistol sideways. With practice, you can improve the consistency, but especially for air pistol, you don't need to hold the pistol tightly on the sides.

A tight group is the result of minimizing variables. The most consistent pressure you can apply to the sides of the grip is ZERO.

Try sticking your pistol out pointed at the target, and align your sights. Now, vary your grip pressure and see how much and in what direction the sights move. If you are unconsciously anticipating the shot and tense up your grip, or you tighten you finger tips as a sympathetic action with increasing the trigger force, that is what your pistol is going to do.

Another problem is that all your life you've grabbed things between your thumb & forefinger. This means that when you apply pressure with your finger on the trigger, the thumb wants to get into the act, and apply sideways pressure to the pistol, pushing it off to the side. Keep the thumb relaxed, and train until you've decoupled the thumb from the trigger squeeze.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:04 am
Left and right is often an indication of an inconsistent grip. ALL of the pressure should be aligned with the barrel. Any sideways pressure from your fingertips or thumb introduces a variable that can push the pistol sideways. With practice, you can improve the consistency, but especially for air pistol, you don't need to hold the pistol tightly on the sides.

A tight group is the result of minimizing variables. The most consistent pressure you can apply to the sides of the grip is ZERO.

Try sticking your pistol out pointed at the target, and align your sights. Now, vary your grip pressure and see how much and in what direction the sights move. If you are unconsciously anticipating the shot and tense up your grip, or you tighten you finger tips as a sympathetic action with increasing the trigger force, that is what your pistol is going to do.

Another problem is that all your life you've grabbed things between your thumb & forefinger. This means that when you apply pressure with your finger on the trigger, the thumb wants to get into the act, and apply sideways pressure to the pistol, pushing it off to the side. Keep the thumb relaxed, and train until you've decoupled the thumb from the trigger squeeze.

On it! Let's see how that goes!

Gwhite wrote: ↑Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:04 am

Try sticking your pistol out pointed at the target, and align your sights. Now, vary your grip pressure and see how much and in what direction the sights move. If you are unconsciously anticipating the shot and tense up your grip, or you tighten you finger tips as a sympathetic action with increasing the trigger force, that is what your pistol is going to do.

Does this mean that a properly fitted grip will minimize sight movement with increasing grip force?

Yes (in theory). I've been working on this off & on with my grips. There is a limit to how much motion you can eliminate, but very small changes can make a surprising difference.

I had a problem with my Morini free pistol shifting to the right if I tightened up my grip a little. I removed a very small amount of material where the base of the thumb pressed against the rear of the grip to the left of the bore line, and the movement was reduced considerably. It still needs some fine tuning, but it made the pistol definitely more "forgiving".

Ideally, I need to train to make my grip more consistent, but free pistol matches are few & far between here, and I only shoot it in the summer. I've also been working on my air pistol grips with the same concept in mind.

One other issue I've discovered is a vertical shift if you tighten your grip. The normal support for a pistol is an upward force from the top of the second finger below the trigger guard, and a counteracting downward force from the heel of the hand onto the heel rest at the rear of the grip. With the typical center of gravity forward of the trigger, the pistol wants to pivot downward on top of your 2nd finger, and the heel of the hand resists this. If you feel the heel of your hand a bit forward of the wrist, there is a muscle there that expands downward as you tighten your grip. That tends to pivot the muzzle upward. I think the solution is to have the heel rest primarily contact the bone just before the break of the wrist, and to relieve the heel rest where that muscle presses. There is very little muscle below that bone, so it doesn't move much if your grip varies.

All of this is presumably known by the really expert grip makers/fitters, but I haven't seen it analyzed in any great detail in print.

Thanks Gwhite - very helpful

The talk about tbe thumb is absolutely right...... Tbumb pressure is quite difficult to get consistent. On my P44, I placed an adhesive backed light felt pad where my thumb would push laterly to remind
me not do that....

spektr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:50 pm The talk about tbe thumb is absolutely right...... Tbumb pressure is quite difficult to get consistent. On my P44, I placed an adhesive backed light felt pad where my thumb would push laterly to remind
me not do that....

One of the things I often see in WC finals is what appears to be heavy thumb pressure with the thumb wrapped around the side of the grip, off of the shelf.

I don't know how they do that, is certainly doesn't work for me. If that is what they want, I wonder why they don't lower their thumb rest. They obviously know more than me though.

spektr wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:50 pm The talk about tbe thumb is absolutely right...... Tbumb pressure is quite difficult to get consistent. On my P44, I placed an adhesive backed light felt pad where my thumb would push laterly to remind
me not do that....

A felt pad? How genteel...

My 1st coach taped a row of thumb tacks sticking out where my finger tips tended to push on the side of the stock. That' cured me fairly quickly, but I left them on for quite a while.

I was kinder to my daughter. She was pushing with her thumb, and I put a piece of this stuff on her grip:



Problem solved...

Here ya go, straight from the boss:

http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg-shtml/

bernt375hh:
The basic requirement is that the thumb joint and forefinger joint must rest on the surface of the handle in balance. The rest of the thumb is inoperative for holding and the rest of the index finger provides pressure on the trigger and must not touch the handle. Crouching the thumb in its first joint and resting it off the pad can help move the thumb joint slightly backwards and reduce the buckle pressure of the thumb by intensely gripping the handle. But it is very individual. It is definitely not advisable to push the end of the thumb on its support downwards.
That is why it is so important to learn to insert the pistol in the hand in the right way, especially in the beginning, and to insert the fingers into the grip gradually from top to bottom and from the palm to the fingertips.