TargetTalk

Muffo wrote:^ that is good advise except I can't see your diet and caffeine making hardly any difference untill you are shooting 570s on comp and trying to shoot 580s. I drink heaps of caffeine. I shot a practice match last week while drinking a coffee and shot 578. Last year I decided to give up drinking caffeine before service rifle nationals. I stopped 4 months before so I wouldn't suffer withdrawals and it made no difference. I actually did slightly worse across the board

Keep in mind that this is general advice. "Your results may vary". I've never seen OP shoot a single shot, nor have I analyzed his diet plan.

For most of my shooters, caffeine causes a little bit of shake. Not much, but more than you'd want in 50m Pistol. For me, caffeine makes my sights look like Michael J. Fox scribbling like an angry 3 year old in a sports car on a cobblestone road. Diet does make a difference, and whether you're shooting a 578 or a 356, it's still important. If you were training for a marathon, would you only run full speed for the last week? What you eat is important, and when you eat it is even more important. If you can subsist on extra dark Columbian espresso, Snickers, and Fritos... well, more power to you. For us mere mortals though, these things matter and there's no reason to train for a match in different circumstances than we'd compete in a match. You just get to have your cake and eat it. I'm actually a little jealous.

Out of curiosity, in what event did you shoot a 578?

This is what Don Nygord said on the subject (for those who haven't bothered to read Nygord's Notes):


This month we'll examine the psychology of shooting. There are some serious contradictions in the messages we get whenever the subjects of “How to acquire shooting skills”, “How to perform at matches”, and “What were the results of your last match performance” are discussed. These contradictions occur at all levels of the game, from the guys at the club to the National Team. Almost everybody that has been shooting for any length of time and not living on a desert island has heard “don't think about your score…” when shooting in a match. Right, sure. Unless you are brain dead, of course you think about your score! We used to joke that the Russians (who were whuppin' us) all had received pre frontal lobotomies because they seemed so stoic in victory or defeat — no expressions of anxiety or joy. This was not true, of course, but we speculated that this procedure would probably improve your match performance, but you wouldn't care! The principal expressed in “don't think about your score while shooting…” is sound enough. Actually, the whole idea is “To acquire great skills, one must think about every aspect of execution, and do so all of the time; but to achieve great performance, one must not “think” at all!!” What this means is that you must be extremely analytical and cognitive in the effort of learning and perfecting the skill of shooting in order to come up with a good technique. But, when actually performing, you must let the mind/body combination operate on the subconscious level, and so do what it was trained to do without the interference of the conscious mind. And, all effort and focus is to be on execution of the act of firing a shot or a series in perfect conformance with the model you derived from all that cognition and rehearsal — not what the results of this execution might yield.

Okay. So you do this, or try to at least. What is the first thing the guys (or the National Coach) asks when you come off of the line? Do they ask, “How many times did you correctly execute your model technique?” Most likely not. Surely they say, “What score did you get?” And, they haven't yet put on a match where the medals are awarded on a percentage of perfect executions, nor do they publish the names of the shooters and the number of excellent executions in the match bulletin. No-sir-ee, they publish the scores. So live with it. Forget the silliness of “Don't think about your scores” but do realize how one accomplishes skill versus how one achieves high performance (which of course equals high scores). Also recognize that everyone at every level experiences increased “arousal” (a word much preferred over fear, anxiety, dread, etc.) when in a serious competition. What most of the top performers have is the confidence that the work they did in learning the skill of shooting will carry them through in spite of (or even because of) this extra arousal. And, because the same adrenalin rush that makes your mouth dry and your palms sweaty also increases your visual acuity, tactile sense, and cognition speed — darned if you might not just end up with a personal best!

Having a plan (i.e., “I am going to execute correctly as much as possible”) and knowing what that is will put you ahead of 90% of the pack before the first shot is fired!

md123180 wrote:

Muffo wrote:^ that is good advise except I can't see your diet and caffeine making hardly any difference untill you are shooting 570s on comp and trying to shoot 580s. I drink heaps of caffeine. I shot a practice match last week while drinking a coffee and shot 578. Last year I decided to give up drinking caffeine before service rifle nationals. I stopped 4 months before so I wouldn't suffer withdrawals and it made no difference. I actually did slightly worse across the board

Keep in mind that this is general advice. "Your results may vary". I've never seen OP shoot a single shot, nor have I analyzed his diet plan.

For most of my shooters, caffeine causes a little bit of shake. Not much, but more than you'd want in 50m Pistol. For me, caffeine makes my sights look like Michael J. Fox scribbling like an angry 3 year old in a sports car on a cobblestone road. Diet does make a difference, and whether you're shooting a 578 or a 356, it's still important. If you were training for a marathon, would you only run full speed for the last week? What you eat is important, and when you eat it is even more important. If you can subsist on extra dark Columbian espresso, Snickers, and Fritos... well, more power to you. For us mere mortals though, these things matter and there's no reason to train for a match in different circumstances than we'd compete in a match. You just get to have your cake and eat it. I'm actually a little jealous.

Out of curiosity, in what event did you shoot a 578?

Yes thats about what it does to me. it gives me a small shake. This is only noticeable for me in training if my hold is really good. My hold isnt really good because I just took the best part of 2 years off shooting pistols. It raises my heart rate slightly and makes my hold a little worse. about the same as being under pressure in comp.

If you re read my post I stated I shot a training match. I dont claim to be that good and Im not. I have learnt to shoot but I havent learnt to compete. I can only shoot low 560s in comp and I havent shot one in 2 years so who knows what will happen at my first comp.

My point is the small affect it has is basically irrelevant for most people. With the slight movement it induces you can still hold the 10 ring and anything outside that is caused by a mistake not from having caffeine.

I find avoiding suggar does a huge amount more than avoiding caffeine. Il drink a watered down orange juice to get a low amount of sugar and keep a constant level. If you consume sugar before a match then later on in the match I seem to get flat and cant concentrate as well

Just a little update. After taking on board all the advice I've been given, and reading up about technique, my shooting is gradually, but consistently improving. I shot a personal best of 518 today, so I'm feeling pretty pleased with myself. Here's a pic of my best card from that session. Pretty good for me.



I'd just like to thank everyone who's offered advice again. It's working.

I would like to share something with you that worked for me. I have taken the time to look several mental management programs and what it comes down to for me is to stay in the moment. I don't know if anybody has mention this but to me it is the most importian thing you can do when shooting a shot in prastice or match. They tell you to take deep breaths, it helps but if your feeling your lungs fill and making yourself let it out slowly, listining to air enter and exit you will be thinking in the present time. If you can execiute your shot in the now, monent, president time their is no room for anything else. You feel presure when you think of the past or future but in the now there is only what your doing. What I am getting at is to need do something in your shot prosess to put you in the moment when all your doing is executing your perfict shot. If you find yourself doing something other than execiuting your perfict shot and your mind starts to wonder (the sites are shaking, what is that noise, I want to shoot a 10, or the thousand other things) put the gun down and start again. Don't try to shoot a 10, that puts pressure on you, just try to execute your perfict shot.

I shot this card today, and I'm very pleased with it.

Muffo wrote: You can shoot quiet well with an elevated heart rate while under pressure. You just have to realise it (very easy to tell your self but very hard to really convince your self of the fact.) I shot a 99 in comp with a hear rate monitor on and me heart rate was at 198, only 5 beats off my max. I was shaking to the shit house but still holding the 10 ring although only just.

Wait, what? My malarkey detector is really going off with this one.
You say you shot a 99. In a match. While wearing an HRM.
First of all, why would you even wear an HRM in a match?

Second of all, I can't imagine HOW in the WORLD you'd get your heart rate up to 198 in a match !!!

I am visualizing something like the following:

MUFFO: "Pardon me, range safety officer and fellow competitors, while I momentarily step away from the firing line to do a series of back-to-back 40-yard sprint intervals alternating with jumping jacks while holding 10 pound weights - and please don't mind the noisy, labored breathing when I do step back up to the line"

RSO AND OTHER COMPETITORS: "sure, go for it, that won't be distracting at all"

MUFFO: Runs and jumps vigorously. Panting and shaking, proceeds to shoot 99.

I've exercised with heart rate monitors, I've done pistol competitions, and I've done biathlon (relevance: shooting with an elevated heart rate), and I'm gonna call "malarkey" on that claim.

See, the thing is, a heart rate that high corresponds to "Maximal Exertion" on the Borg Scale of Perceived Exertion, which results in a "Shortness of breath so severe you need to stop". That is not compatible either with "holding the 10 ring" or shooting a 99.


----

Finally, if any of this is true, I'm going to recommend that you let your doctor know about what you're doing. AFAIK, there's no accepted training regimen that recommends any kind of anaerobic activity up to 97.5% of your heart rate max; you could end up doing yourself serious harm.

I am truly hoping not to jinx this thread, but this has got to be the most informative AND nicest (with all the respectful opinions) thread in Targettalk.org
I have been shooting since the early 80's and am still learning quite a bit from this thread. Kudos to all of you.

ronpistolero wrote:I am truly hoping not to jinx this thread, but this has got to be the most informative AND nicest (with all the respectful opinions) thread in Targettalk.org
I have been shooting since the early 80's and am still learning quite a bit from this thread. Kudos to all of you.

Yes, I agree. It just goes to show what a nice bunch of folk the target shooting community are. ;)

I'm not a huge fan of golf (I've played about three rounds in my entire life) but there are a number of similarities between that sport and target shooting in terms of how people perform under pressure and dealing with competition nerves (racing pulse rates, adrenalin rushes etc). Being (alas) a much more popular pursuit than ISSF shooting, there is extensive published literature on the topic which is readily applicable to our sport. Much is to do with learning mental techniques to deal with the competition pressure rather than how to hold a golf club so you don't need to worry too much about technical aspects not being applicable.
I'm just reading one at the moment which caught my eye on the new books stand at our local library which I have been quite impressed by; Robin Sieger, Golf under pressure ; Conquer the choke point with a silent mind .
This seems to be an advance on one of his earlier works called Silent Mind Golf which reviews well and I'll probably seek it out soon.

A friend of mine and one of the brightest psychiatrists I've ever met made the same observation. He is a trap shooter and 4 handicap golfer and considers shooting and golfing nearly identical in the mental requirements for a "quiet mind"

I'd like to thank you all for your help and constructive comments.



Not bad for my first year shooting, eh? ;)

Nicely done, congratulations!

Those are some nice awards.

Congratulations Old Man, now you can stop whinging(:

madmax wrote:Congratulations Old Man, now you can stop whinging(:

Not bloody likely. :)