TargetTalk

Anonymous wrote:Al, Richard I can see the logic behind taking advice from those that shoot to a higher level when a qualified coach isn't available.

Got me thinking about the whole coaching /advice thing a bit differently. When I say coaching I am thinking more about technique, what needs to be done to produce a good shot. When I talk of advice I'm looking at little the things that might make implementing this technique more consistant.

In the UK we have levels of coaching, probably much like your own. The technique level 'coaching' is covered by a club instructor. That would really be aimed at new and novice shooters. Above that we have layers of coaches and coaching training.

Whatever form coaching takes, it's objective is pretty much the same. That is to get the best out of the shooter and teach them how to develop themselves as a shooter.

Rob.

Sorry, I'm of the subject.
Rob, your photo shows you shooting with a bent arm.
I too shoot with my arm bend, but only very slightly, nothing like your photo shows.
So, how important is it to have the arm straight? Many of the best shooters appear to have their elbow locked. Even locked and slightly inverted. (whatever the word is when the elbow locks out further than straight.)

John Hadjichristou wrote:Sorry, I'm of the subject.
Rob, your photo shows you shooting with a bent arm.
I too shoot with my arm bend, but only very slightly, nothing like your photo shows.
So, how important is it to have the arm straight? Many of the best shooters appear to have their elbow locked. Even locked and slightly inverted. (whatever the word is when the elbow locks out further than straight.)

John,
My bent arm is a result of athritis so it's an imposed factor rather than a choice to shoot like that. For me that is as far as the arm extends so it's akin to an 'ordinary' shooter, shooting with a fully extended arm.

As a coach I teach people to shoot with the arm fully extended. With it bent you need to stabilise it using your muscles and that is more demanding physically and is less stable than an extended joint, plus it is going to be less consistent from shot to shot and day to day.

Rob.

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:Shooting and coaching are separate skill sets, some shooters have the skills to coach some don't, some coaches have the skill to shoot well some don't. Coaches just like shooters have to be evaluted on their own merits, if you take preconceived ideas into the relationship these can greatly effect the outcome of the coach/shooter relationship.

I wish I'd said that.

He is wise. They call him "Shrek".

;-)

Patrick

I would take advice from a shooter who is at a lower level than me,(Although I would be more cautious of advice from a lower level shooter than that of a higher level shooter). Anything is worth a try.

Im amazed that any1 would say yes as what happens if they were once a very good shooter. just because they cant now doesnt mean they dont no how to do it much better than we can also, although they are in the minority, some people can coach extreemly well even at an elete level that couldnt shoot a bahn if they were inside it. I attempt to give people advise who are both better and have been shooting longer than me. Its not advise that i have figured out, more that i can pass on from others, they can except it or not it doesnt matter and i might be able to learn from them along the way

220 wrote:Our club coach (pistol) struggles to shoot 510 regularly in any match yet can have a person who has never shot previously shooting above this level in 1/2 dozen sessions.

Can one hire your coach per tempore? (Question is half in earnest - my Kenyan colleagues need an English-speaking coach with good pedagogic abilities)

Alexander

If I had the choice, I'd take advice from a good coach who is a superior shot over a good coach who shoots mediocre scores. That being said, I've met a lot of great shots who couldn't coach worth a lick. I've never met a poor shot who was a very good coach. The exception being, one who shoots poorly now, but at one time was a very good shot. Sooner or later a poor shot will impart poor techniques unto the student, be it mental or physical.

The worst coach IMHO is the shooter himself. A good coach can pick up errors and patterns quickly and help the shooter to make corrections so that they don't become ingrained. A poor coach can give a shooter bad advice which can become very hard to overcome later. A good coach give the shooter positive messages and correct technical advice. Bad coaching can keep a shooter from reaching his maximum potential. Negative coaching can result in the shooter having a poor self-image. This can be a big stumbling block to progress.

Misny wrote:The worst coach IMHO is the shooter himself.

Umm, I'd disagree. IMHO The worst coach is no coach. The shooter can be a good self coach if he has studied to be a coach, if he hasn't mastered the art of coaching then it's going to a very difficult hill to climb.

Rob.

I have yet to vote because both are right in my opinion.

while shooting my final years in running target, to take advice from a novice, a hacker, even the appointed national coach was a waste of both our time, none are at the level I was already at, nor do they have any hope of getting you there in the first place, let alone get better, I would consider myself the teacher, not the student.
So, at that level, coaches are thin on the ground, but they are out there.
so thin, shooters discuss issues amoung themselves. so thin that the discussion may have 6 guys from as many countries discussing stuff like it was between classmates. yet they are competing against each other.

not like club level, where you find guys rather stuff you up than train to beat you. then there are those that would give their right arm to help.
what beginner can tell who's who?

Now, I have a new challenge, pistol.
now I take advice from everyone, as most know more than me, but I still take caution before proceeding, especially as some basics are just completely wrong from what I have ever known.
like look at the sights, forget about target, that is so wrong, but are some of the pistol basics.
even though my results are better than most I shoot with, they still know more about how to shoot a pistol, Im still learning.
I expect there will be a time when nothing could be gleaned from them.
then I will be looking for a coach also.


So jack thinks a coach cant coach if he yells at his student/s. Lololol.
Sorry jack, could I tell you some stories.
why do you think coaches cant approach the shooter during comps any more, now they have to wait till the shooter leaves the line, thats why some dont want to, they know what is coming.

dont even talk about training

was woken up by screaming once at a w/c, about 5 am, a coach had his student doing laps, then push ups etc, at 7 he was still going, still yelling, later that day that guy set a new world record. maybe I should of put my runners on! Some are worried about a coffee before they shoot???

I think though many have had exellent coaches, how many of them have got you to world standard in a world cup or higher?
at some point it is not an issue where your left foot is, might make it easier, but nothing to do with 10 10 10 10 oops.

you can get from a book where that foot should be, but at elite level you cant get the experience required from reading books.

bryan wrote:I think though many have had exellent coaches, how many of them have got you to world standard in a world cup or higher?
at some point it is not an issue where your left foot is, might make it easier, but nothing to do with 10 10 10 10 oops.

you can get from a book where that foot should be, but at elite level you cant get the experience required from reading books.

Not a World Cup, I mainly shot non-Olympic events, but 4th in a European Championships (in the days of the "iron-curtain countries) and mid-teens in two World Championships.

At the same time my coach got 3 other national squad members shooting to a similar standard so that in both C/F and Standard Pistol it was difficult to decide who to leave out of the team of 3.

That coach was never a great shooter, reasonable club level at best. He had not even been a shooting coach for that long (only about 10 years)having previously been a cricket coach at club level.

What he did have was a supreme ability to inspire his shooters.

My belief does still remain that if a coach has to raise his voice in anger he is not a good coach and just has extreme difficulty in communicating. In our shooting sports, where most will agree that the mental game is quite necessary, good, pleasant, soothing thoughts rather than negative thoughts must exist. Any coach that disrupts a shooter during a match with anything but positive comments is incompetent and needs more than a sports psychologist to work with him.

The hard work must be in practice. Matches should be fun.

Please note how closely Bryans experience parallels mine. The coaches I was exposed to were so far below my own hard won knowledge in understanding shooting at the championship level that they hindered my applcation of the shooting skills . My advances came fron very personel contacts with our very best shooters. I was constantly recieving valuable tips about using only positive mental approaches both before I went to my firing point and during the progression of the match. There is nothing wrong with a well written book to gude your thinking and develope your shooting technique. {Russian coaches and shooters thoughts and recomendations were of enormous value ]BUT A POOR COACH HINDERS YOUR PROGRESS. At least make the effort to find someone that has reasonable knowledge about our sport and can impart that knowledge accurately. The best indicator that some one can help you reach your shooting goals is usually someone that has shot at or very near the level you are trying to achieve. That is at least a starting point for you. Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:BUT A POOR COACH HINDERS YOUR PROGRESS.

That would be difficult to argue with.

2650 Plus wrote:At least make the effort to find someone that has reasonable knowledge about our sport and can impart that knowledge accurately. The best indicator that some one can help you reach your shooting goals is usually someone that has shot at or very near the level you are trying to achieve.

I disagree. The best indicator is that someone has successfully helped other shooters at or near the level you are trying to achieve. The fact that the coach/advisor/mentor personally achieved those score levels only proves that they had learned what it took to make them personally achieve those scores. There is no "one size fits all" solution to good shooting. What suits one shooter may not necessarilly suit another.

I am not saying that a good shooter cannot become a good coach, that would be ridiculous. What I am saying is that being, or having been, a good shooter does not automatically make you a good coach, nor is it a pre-requisite for being one.

If you want to find a good coach, find the good shooters and see who coaches them.

Just a little bit more food for thought. Being a good shot may help a coach to be able to impart the right techniques. That doesnt mean they can teach you the mental ability to be able to shoot. and how much is physical and how much is mental ability to be able to produce top scores in competition

Gaby Bühlmann is an example of a successful coach (bringing Abhinav Bindra to Olympic Gold) who also is a very good shooter herself in Switzerland. But both capacities need not be combined. It may be added that Gaby is also known as an author.

Alexander

A shooting coach has just been named who coached a gold medal olympic shooter and was also identified as an outstanding shooter in her own right.. Can any one identify a coach that has coached any other gold medalist or world champion named by the shooter as the reason he / she accomplished their shooting goal even though the coach was not a kniown shooter ? I have had many try to take credit for the success I had in our sport. Some I had never met. How about you ? Good Shooting Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:Can any one identify a coach that has coached any other gold medalist or world champion named by the shooter as the reason he / she accomplished their shooting goal even though the coach was not a kniown shooter ?

On a similar vein, and requesting that nobody identifies those involved, how many of us know high level shooters who have turned to coaching with "less than impressive" results.

David Levene wrote:On a similar vein, and requesting that nobody identifies those involved, how many of us know high level shooters who have turned to coaching with "less than impressive" results.

I do

Spencer

I can think of a few coaches that have coached olympians that were also olympians, even both gold medalists and world record holders.

I know some had there initial coaching from dad, but dont know if dad was a shooter, most likely, thats how they got the early head start.

it is when they get to the national coach, that the final polish should occur to get from top teens to podium.
look at countries results to see who has an elite head coach.
or one smart enough to dont touch wat ant broke.

so who is the current head usa olympic pistol team coach?

I think it takes longer to teach a sports psychologist about shooting than an elete shooter about sports psychology.

most of the best coaches I know were olympic has beens that were sent to school to be sports psychologist, then worked their way back up as a coach, this process has died, so elete coaches will get harder to find.