TargetTalk

Hi FredB,

Yes, I'm actually suggesting that all conscious fix actions be avoided. But, let's not take this understanding too wide. Everything we do from stance through hold is based on an error correction system. The good part is that it is run by our subconscious. It takes the tactile, inner ear and visual cues, and helps us to stand as still as possible by making very small over-corrections. That's why we seem to oscillate. The muscles are driven until they trigger the end of bounds at which time reverse impulses are given to correct. That correction also reaches a trigger to change direction. The best we can do is train ourselves to minimize the boundaries and soften the corrections.

Once we move those corrections into our conscious, we lose the finesse of the subconscious and add in "pause for correction." However, intense concentration on the front sight, with the intent to keep it aligned with the rear, does not equate to conscious fix actions. Conscious fix actions can be identified by their abruptness. The most easily recognized ones are those where you abruptly move the sights back to center instead of letting them float undisturbed. You can be consciously aware of the sight alignment, and picture, while allowing all corrective activity to be performed at a natural level. However, this may not guarantee that you are making proper corrections with your subconscious. It is possible that your intent to keep the sights aligned is accomplished by the subconscious adjusting via the wrist/grip when you misapply pressure to the trigger. You should strive to recognize the purity of your trigger application via your sighting system. This you need to work on during dry fire by training your finger to keep the sights aligned while leaving the grip/wrist pressures in line with the bore.

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for your input. I like where you're coming from. Unfortunately, some of us are so analytical, we have to break everything into something we can believe in. Then we share those beliefs. If you've followed mine for any length of time, you probably know that my ultimate belief is that we can make shooting a ten a natural event, taken care of by the subconscious as it takes care of tasks like walking up stairs or chewing food. We should be able to simply decide to fire a ten, pick the gun up, point it at the target and fire a ten - as simple as that. I further believe that if we can get our conscious out of the way (let it become the initiator and observer only), we can achieve that level of naturalness.

Thanks again, everyone. Sorry I've been so delayed in my replies (and am omitting many I'd still like to make) - and I initiated the thread...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

thanks ed, I am new to this sight, so not up with who you are, or your beliefs.

you are correct in trying to shoot a ten as naturally as walking up the stairs.
but if you were judged by ten people for technique etc, and given a score for it, you would run into the same problems walking up stairs as you are currently experiencing with shooting.
just remember the little guy in the back off your head that decides you have shot to many 10's and chucks a wobbly is your subconcious.

the little guy/girl is conditioned by you as to what is acceptable.
you can trick the little guy at times, but generally he will always hold you back from your true ability.

you are heading in the right direction in trying to improve yourself.
it is your concious mind that controls how you think, it is an integral part of the mix.
you do use it as the initiator/observer. and can step in when you want.

it is your subconcious you need to put out of the way. or rather not use.
then you would be in the right zone.

it is hard to get the idea, but once you do you wonder what you were doing prior.
obviously this is touching the tip of the iceberg, but going in the right direction is a start.

using your subconcious will normally produce results below training results.
using other areas creates results similar to, or higher than training results.

to go much further requires lots individual work to put things in such a way that you understand, and don,t laugh at me.

bryan

there are 2 methods of competing.
the first is you get a truck full of ammo, and work hard to get ride of it.

the other is you learn to train smarter, hopefully learn to use the correct part of your head, and compete higher than training.

both methods can produce WR's but we don't all have a truck full of ammo.

Hi Bryan,

I've had some discussion on the idea that instead of using the subconscious, we should be in heightened awareness. Although (I think) I'm familiar with HA and have experienced it with success in other endeavors, I've never experienced it while shooting. Perhaps a failing on my part, or maybe there is an ambiguity in definitions, but where I'm coming from is to use the same system that you use to do those things that seem automatic even though you are making decisions during the event. Case in point: you can probably eat an entire meal, while discussing shooting with a fellow competitor, without choking or biting yourself. During that meal you have to coordinate all the items going in with the words coming out, breathing and you're making decisions on which item next. I'm looking at shooting a ten being that natural. My belief structure at this point tells me this activity is handled by the subconscious with conscious input for decisions such as which item to eat (or drink) next and when to take that next bite. The subconscious takes care of tongue/teeth and amount of chewing, etc. This leads me to the idea that with the proper training the subconscious should be able to carry out the firing of a ten, as long as it knows that's what we want and we get our conscious out of the way. We should probably follow this in a different thread, but I am also often slow getting back to the board. For now, I must run.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

you caught me on a couple good days, sometimes more than a week between replies.
this thread is fine, much input is from people less advanced than yourself which slow things up somewhat if it was a dedicated thread.

clearing up ambiguity of definitions is the first step in getting on the same page, so to speak.
next would be to explore specific situations to see there are actually slight differences in the label "subconcious", that new awareness is the start of building trust between the coach/shooter.
the reason I think some will never compete to their best is the inability to focus properly.

your term, "hightened awareness" can you expand on that, what does it mean to you.


learning to compete properly, start by going back to basics, making sure it is all in place, nothing omitted over the yrs, then moving forward in steps, once certain tasks are met, move to the next step.
it is a relearning process, as what most are doing is wrong.
for all those saying bullshit, ask why are you asking questions!

as an example, when was the last time you were afraid of shooting a ten in training? so you have learned to train well then!
wrong again.
So to learn to shoot that shot better, is a lot of work, a lot of undoing, a lot of relearning, but well worth it if you still have some competative yrs left in you. if you are past wanting to be on the national team, dont worry about it, just have fun.


Shot Process

you can break the whole shot down into lots little pieces, starting at feet placement, work your way up to where your little finger is.
these you learn and put under muscle memory.

then on to the shot, but prior to that is lots shot preparation, you don't just lign it up, then expect a 10 every time.
it is learning to prepare for the shot that is critical, the shot is then bit like keeping your tongue out of the way while eating, it is automatic.
if certain conditions exist before the shot, stop, start again.
if not it will be released with little thought about it.
even multiple shots, eg rapid

but we all bite our tongue from time to time, so we then keep it out of the way for a while till we forget, or swelling goes down!
what I was getting at is if we stuff up shooting, it happens, but we are still beating ourselves up over it long after the swelling has gone, this is causing damage.
If you are trying to be better, sometimes the results are less than desirable.

breaking the shot down into little bits, from the time it is ligned up to release is important.
you can then decide what is important to you.
the shot preparation has to be simple, so you need to work on a couple of key things only, maybe 3. the rest are muscle memory.

this becomes your shot plan.

when you can follow your shot plan, there are more steps.
but many take the next step without prompting, so you need to monitor what the shooter is doing.

your results will be an indicator of how good your shot plan is for you, so it may take a while to find the right plan.

the shot plan is what you visualize/tell yourself to do, then do it.


but most of this is the straight forward stuff that needs to be in place to build on.
it is very helpful for shooters that are having trouble maintaining good control.
I also have to go

[quote="Ed Hall"]...........you can probably eat an entire meal, while discussing shooting with a fellow competitor, without choking or biting yourself. During that meal you have to coordinate all the items going in with the words coming out, breathing and you're making decisions on which item next. I'm looking at shooting a ten being that natural. .........[/quote]

Well Ed, then wouldn't you be able to shoot a 10 while discussing (I'm not sure what. "Dinner" maybe. How about "shooting a 10") with a fellow competitor.

Does 'talking your way through the shot' sound like a training technique?

JackH wrote:Well Ed, then wouldn't you be able to shoot a 10 while discussing (I'm not sure what. "Dinner" maybe. How about "shooting a 10") with a fellow competitor.

(I wonder why my quote in your message didn't format right - it looked correct...)

Jack, you have definitely lit up an area of interest for me. I would have to say that maybe that's where our trouble is - too much concentration on the details. Let's compare driving: we need sensory input, but most of the tasks are controlled by our subconscious. We can carry on a conversation while driving without too much degradation. Let's explore an old exercise about how we can mentally mess with ourselves:

Let's start with a perfectly flat and level two-foot wide sidewalk running in front of some houses with lawn areas on both sides of the sidewalk. Most of us, barring physical troubles, can walk along that sidewalk, carefree, with no worries and no changes from our normal gate.

Now, let's take away the lawn on both sides of that specific sidewalk and replace the grass with fifty-foot deep trenches a couple yards across. A whole lot of people could no longer walk on that sidewalk in their carefree, no worries, manner. In fact, there would be a large number who couldn't walk it at all. Same sidewalk - different mindset. A lot of those who could/would walk it, would probably not talk as freely as they had on the original, either. Kind of like the question, why do we turn down our car stereo when we're looking for a house address?

I have a very vivid memory of a success story I like to recall, and will do so here. In my weekly BE league we fire three, 30-round, NRA Gallery courses (which, for our International readers, are similar to standard pistol, but at 50 feet), each consisting of a Slow, Timed and Rapid stage (target). One night, during one of my relays, I was acutely aware that a shooter on my right was having gun troubles. When our first Rapid string (5 shots in 10 seconds) began, I noticed that he was already having troubles. After about 3 seconds I tried to get back to shooting my string and, after another second or two, finally gave up trying to get settled and just fired the five shots down range. Darned, if I didn't let him distract me again for the start of the second string, with the same resulting pause, give up, spray five. Of course, I knew it wasn't going to be stellar, but how bad was it? How about 100-10x! That's right, by releasing myself to just “doing it” without regard to trying to do well, I had fired 10 X's. (For those that aren't familiar with the NRA B-3 Rapid target, the x-ring (center ten) measures 0.90 inch.)

So maybe we should be able to drive cars, eat meals and fire tens while carrying on a conversation. Maybe all we really need is good sensory input without conscious interference...

All comments, always welcome...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Here's my third detailed answer to discuss. This is turning into quite a project. I hope the length of time and variety of material hasn't turned off some of the readers. I also am hopeful some good will come of all this, for if this really is of no use, I need to stop sitting here writing and put more time into study.

Originally I wrote:3. The best way to achieve consistency is to

a. perform the desired task over and over.
b. allow the task to "perform itself" by making use of the subconscious.
c. observe daily indicators and shift technique accordingly.
d. compete in as many championships as possible.

My answer is:

3. The best way to achieve consistency is to a. perform the desired task over and over.

Most of the replies gave b while none gave d for the answer. Only three chose a as the correct response. I find this interesting since a very common training technique is to perform a task over and over to ingrain it into our subconscious and then play it back on demand. Isn't this done for consistency? To be truthful, I think the better technique is to allow the subconscious to control the event, but that will not necessarily result in consistency. In fact, it will allow for the subconscious to make adjustments as needed for success, which may actually be somewhat inconsistent in application. If we turn our activity over to the subconscious, wouldn't it be able to perform c, which would not necessarily display consistency, but might reward us with higher scores?

A short response this time, but I'm also answering some other items along the way. And, I haven't addressed all those I want to yet, either...

More later...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

In my country, people who know less than 10% of the information on this thread can shoot Free Pistol 560+

The person who know 90% of the information find himself in average Free Pistol 540

WHY?

Knowledge is not the answer?

I constantly ask myself that what require a man to success in this sport?

talent? knowledge? physical? mental? feeling?

In my country, people who know less than 10% of the information on this thread can shoot Free Pistol 560+

And I'm willing to bet the coaches stress simplicity - make each shot a good technical shot process.

NOT the "ten or bust" mentality we seem to foster here.

Look after the simple things without clouding the issue with fear of failure, and better results will come.

In my country, people who know less than 10% of the information on this thread can shoot Free Pistol 560+

Look after the simple things without clouding the issue with fear of failure, and better results will come.

Hmm... These come as a relief. I guess I don't have to waste any more effort in explaining my ideas....(smile)

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Hi ed,
gather your term HA. is what I would use as in the zone?


no such thing as trying to hard, only trying to hard on the wrong thing!

bryan wrote:Hi ed,
no such thing as trying to hard, only trying to hard on the wrong thing!

I beg to disagree. In my experience the best shoots are when it flows and feels easy and when you release the subconscious. Try too hard and you switch to shooting more consciously and the outcome is a poorer performance and you feel exhausted.

I can't remember where I read it but it goes something like "train hard to compete easy" By that it means you work hard at quality training to make the competitions seem (relatively) easy.

Rob.

Rob, you having a go at me!
"train hard to compete easy"
think I wrote that also, but I was not the first, because it is true
the hard work is all done before the comp, not on the day!

but you contradicted your own statement in disagreeing with me.

the hard work is done in training, not on comp day.
if you train to train, comps are hard work, and you often have difficult competitions.

the training at your level is to learn to compete, not survive in competitions. you are probably training as good as anyone in the world, but dont reproduce that in competition.
at your level alot of your training time should be spent on learning to let your subconcious go, eg, get in the zone.

results are just a symptom.
good results you did things well, poor results, not so well.
in saying that, I reference results against your training scores. not everyone else.

you probably have read this before, "stop trying to shoot 10's"
as soon as you establish results are the end result, the sooner you can start to train to shoot results.
sorry if I bore you at all, I make alot of assumptions as I dont know you.
rob, any time you want to have a go at me is fine.

not like the guy from "570 are a low score".
you don't need to know 10% of this stuff if your coach does, but not many have access to this type of quality coach.
even less can take their coach with them to comps!

jackh
talking and shooting 10's, no trouble. but not within issf rules.
but you still have to shift your mind from the conversation back to the shot for the release, then continue talking. good training exercise.
assuming you know where to shift your mind to, otherwise it is a huge distraction.
most of the process of the shot is done without thought, it is only when we interfere it becomes difficult.

bryan

Hi Ed,
Just my ideas - always open to suggestions
1. Match preparation starts

a. with the preparation period.
b. when you get up on the day of the match.
c. on the evening prior to the match.
d. during the training sessions before a match.

d.
2.
2. The hold for the perfect shot

a. has to sit stationary on the center of the bull.
b. has to be continually and consciously corrected to keep it centered.
c. should be allowed to float undisturbed over the aiming area.
d. should be rigid, like a vise, to be effective.

c.
3.
3. The best way to achieve consistency is to

a. perform the desired task over and over.
b. allow the task to "perform itself" by making use of the subconscious.
c. observe daily indicators and shift technique accordingly.
d. compete in as many championships as possible.

b.
4.
4. The trigger operation for the perfect shot

a. has to be slow to be consistent.
b. starts just as the aligned sights settle in the center.
c. has to be fast to be consistent.
d. completes as the aligned sights settle in the center.

d.
5.
5. The best method to tell your subconscious what you desire is to

a. perform that event.
b. visualize that event.
c. make that event a goal.
d. study all the details about the event.

b.
6.
6. The proper use of open sights entails

a. aligning the sights with the center of the bull.
b. using a set pattern to check alignment, i.e. left gap, right gap, level tops, etc.
c. fixing your focus on a single point of the front sight.
d. placing the bull on top of the front sight image.

None of the above, the sight relationship is a picture of the front sight level and centred in the backsight opening using the subconscious to maintain this relationship
7.
7. Rate the following in importance from 1 to 8 (1 is most important):

1. ____ a. NPA
2. ____ b. sight alignment
3. ____ c. grip
4. ____ d. hold
5. ____ e. trigger operation
6. ____ f. stance
7. ____ g. attitude
8. ____ h. imagery (visualization)

Pistol
– f. stance by that I mean stability
- a. NPA
- h. imagery
- c. grip
- d. hold is a part of stability of the firearm system, not something separate
- b. sight alignment
- e. trigger operation, again this is a subconscious effort governed by d and b, should not be separated as that is something akin to shooting by numbers
follow through


8. If it's a ten, it was a good shot.

a. True
b. False

Not necessarily so it cannot be answered by a court of law answer as yes.no

9. The better you get, the less time is needed for training.

a. True
b. False

a. true

10. Two eights (or one six) in the first ten shots means the match is lost.

a. True
b. False

b. false

macca

Hi Bryan,

I have been in the zone (while shooting) and have experienced what I considered Heightened Awareness (elsewhere), but never have I experienced HA while shooting. Maybe I'm just missing out, or am misinterpretting terms - perhaps what I consider HA is something else... I was told by one individual that they shoot to experience HA.

Thanks to Macca and Rob for their participation. I firmly believe, from experience, that shooting in the ten ring is easier than elswhere. I have really stuggled for some poor rewards on occasion.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Hi EdH
I'm not exactly sure what everyone else defines 'heightened awareness' as, and I'm not sure I know myself what it is. So I have looked back in my shooting history to the few times I believe I was doing it right. I was a mere recruit and we were about to ride after Pancho Villa....

No. Really X's were happening out on the target, but I didn't know and I didn't care. My objective was to keep alignment and pull the trigger for the surprise break. Thats all. Things that helped the most were an (heightened?) 'awareness' of:

1. A front to back grip on the gun. Nothing about certain pressure on the grip. Just front to back. This was just an awareness thing, not a conscious act. This was the smallest awareness.

2. The sights were aligned. The way that happened was the light was strong on the sights and I could see them very clearly. My eye was on and could stay on the sight. I was totally aware of the front sight. The rest of the sight picture elements, steadiness and aim area, just happened. I do not believe there was any awareness on the bull or concern of steadiness. Just the seeing the aligned sight.

3. About equal awareness was that I was pressing the trigger and not alowing it to change the sight. I think I was doing the on-off pressure technique the older versions of the AMU manual had in them. The first time I read that I was reminded of this shooting experience.

4. And finally, the closest thing to actual thinking was a string of thought in my mind seeking a 'surprise break'. I didn't want to know when it would break. Just wanted it to be a surprise.

The best ever time this happened was with a Colt 38 OMM revolver. I also have achieved this occasionally with several other guns. I don't know why it is so hard to duplicate.

Good vision, enough light on the sight, feeling good yourself, good physical condition, quality trigger mechanism, all seem to be the most important factors to help get this zone thing to happen.

Hi ed, seems a little confusion over HA!

Once you are in fact in the zone (using the correct part of your brain) you then can use it in different ways to meet different challenges.
one area is time.
when nervous, time appears to be racing.
when in the zone you can slow everything down if you wish, this is usefull for some activeties, but generally not shooting.
though you can stretch out the shot release causing you to think you are a lot steadier than you are, it is not always that noticable.

So what I am suggesting is they are both the same.

in high speed sports people can slow everything down (perceived) to give a HA feeling. that is very noticable.
is that what you are thinking?


Jackh
working on the process is important to getting in the zone, also creating a rythm and being in control.
there are lots steps to promote getting there, it is recognising your feelings when you are there that then becomes important.

once you recognise that, the steps you learn to get there on occasion are now your old plan.
you don't need a catylist to get into the right zone once you know how.
providing you are in control, you can acheive this state at will.

it is not that hard, lots people acheive it. it's learning how that can take time. some do it naturally, but not sure how.

this is part of the problem, there is no straight forward explanation that all would understand. either your coach needs to interprete you, or you need to learn to understand your coach, providing he knows what you need.
next issue is at this level of thought, your students need to be at a certain level. I have not found anyone that can comprehend what is going on until they have actually been there before.(in the zone)
and then it takes a lot of work to create a common understanding.
so straight up this rules out text book coaches at this level.
there is a reason why the best coaches come from the top level of sport first, not school.

once you get in the zone, all the technical issues largely discussed, become irrelevant. you automatically adapt to them.
o/k there are exeptions.

So I tend to work towards getting into the zone, rather than other issues, which normally are symptoms of not being in the zone.
this is for elite shooters, not so much club shooters, but for the club shooter it shows direction should they choose to be more than that.

lots of people get in the zone during training without trying to, and don't even realise it!.
but soon as they try to shoot a "10". well you know the rest.

Ed:

My response for consistency was b. But (and a very important "butt" it is) my comments also included all the other responses. This is because I read a couple of things into the question (which may have been in appropriate for your intended purpose).

I assumed that by "consistency" it was implied that it was to cover the correct and proper sequence of actions to achieve the desired result. Therefore, not just consistency, but consistent proper process and results. Of note, I can consistently jerk my shots into quite a small group, although the group will be somewhat displaced from the maximum scoring ring. Usually over in the next county. In other words, I can do the same thing over and over again, but if it does not achieve the desired outcome it does not meet my real meaning of "consistent".

Next I assumed that the statement was also for the complete shot process, the actual one to be used in competition. Therefore, my global concept of consistency includes not only the training mode of getting a good "consistent" shot process, but consistency in the application, development, timing and completion of the shot process, physical AND mental in order to compete at my maximum ability.

Therefore, doing the same thing over and over does not (to my mind) develop consistency. Doing the complete correct thing a number of times, learning the pitfalls and deadends to watch out for in the process, learning the flow of the correct process and then letting the process simply develop, flow and terminate is the path to consistency.

If I have to complete 3,000 perfect X's in a row to learn how to properly (consistency) shoot 10's, I will never make it to where I want to be. If I can develop a consistent process to shot 10's, without every firing an absolutely perfect X, I will still make my goals with lots of room to spare. This goes back to my adversion (if you will) to the term "perfect" as applices to any shot or part of the shot process. Perfection may well be unobtainable, although it is a good training concept it creates a failure mode everything we don't achieve it.

Ah.. but consistency on the other hand or "just shoot a 10" if you will. Well, that one I can be pretty successful with on a consistent basis and get a lot of good, affirming, well feeling feedback from my performance. Which will make me want to do it again. To me, this is a much more pleasing path than "perfection" and "doing it over and over" again.

Just some thoughs and comments to start the day. Only a few more weeks to Perry and I'm not nearly ready to go. But I'm happy and having fun. What more can you want out of life, or shooting for that matter?

Cecil Rhodes

Bryan
I must thank Cecil for waking me up and to again put some thoughts on this into words. (No simple task for me. The words, that is)

Anyway I am starting to sense in my mind a third party to be ordered to do what I want. Perhaps it is my subconscious. Rather than me aligning the sights, I am going back into my mind and have it align sights while I watch (the sight). Same thing on the trigger, I want to sense the trigger pressure, not apply it myself.

Jack:

FWIW, my "theory" is that you should assign the "right task to the right person" (e.g. level of brain function).

Trigger Manipulation: train it to be automatically perfect
Trigger Release: subconscious
Settle/Aim: semi-autonomic (kinda "watch from a distance")
Alignment: conscious

Since your conscious mind will be thinking of something no matter what . . . why not give it something productive to think about?

Our brain can't manage any of the other tasks (disastrous if we consciously try to manage TManipulation, TRelease, or "Aim"); and it can manage alignment, and alignment is something that needs to be foucsed on intently, that division of labor makes sense to me.

Steve