TargetTalk

shooting an hour ago i was working on this. i find once i get into it most of the jitters go away. i have too much else to think about, all those little things that add up to ten, grip check, sight right, feet right , right up to the pad on my fingertip applying prussure and rethinking sight alinement, and back to my trigger, etc etc, boom its over, i was too busy thinking to worry about any thing. i dont check my shot until im done with the match. thats in the past, i know right were that bullet went and i cant change that. I dont want to worry about it. ( Pete s said one has just got too have confidence) ( Isuguncoach said "what am i doing shooting againt these people" thats going too kill your scores) win or lose im only there too win, if i lose thats info for after the match . ( warrens comment " i didnt mean this to become so philisophical) was great . i dont think the mental part of shooting should be that way "philisopical . ( too much mental bullshit too worry about will really screw you up)" people will totally disagree with me but too get rid of your gitters is easy. practice, get good , i mean real good, confidence boiling over, then at the end of a shoot check your scores and practice some more.

[quote.............others who have provided helpful hints within many words that I can boil down and see and use that which is left over and meaningful to me.[/quote]

Jack,
I enjoy reading your comments and insights on shooting. You are an experienced shooter, willing to take the time to sort thru the BS provided by Chet to find a nugget you can use. The problem is all the inexperienced shooters reading that stuff and believing it. When I got back into shooting a few years ago I made the mistake of spending $30 on Chet's [i]The Shooter's Personal Coach - Always On Call[/i]. Took me some time - wasted time - to find the nuggets. Finally threw the book away.
Fred[/quote]

Fred, As written the overly wordy books and articles don't help us shoot the shot. There is way too much to handle for our simple minds. We can and should study and experiment, then get rid of the excess and make our shot staging and committing as simple as possible. Brian Zins articles have helped me the most recently. Remember he stated he is not smart enough to shoot bad?
[Zins from a Jan 2006 email] "I am not smart
enough to shoot bad. Erich Bujung, when he was the Olympic
Pistol Team coach always said, "No stinking thinking". The
mind is a terrible thing to waste and in Bullseye on the
firing line the mind is just a terrible thing."[end Zins]

Keeping my eye on the sight
Trigger control
NOT thinking
Physical condition

These are the 4 things I am going to work on the most.

Jack

jackh wrote: Keeping my eye on the sight
Trigger control
NOT thinking
Physical condition

These are the 4 things I am going to work on the most.

Me too

Fred Mannis wrote:

jackh wrote: Keeping my eye on the sight
Trigger control
NOT thinking
Physical condition

These are the 4 things I am going to work on the most.

Me too

No conscious individual can stop thinking !! In fact the so-called 'Stream Of Consciousness' can't be stopped !

So if you try Not Thinking you are misplacing time and energy , and you are sure to fail.

(( there were experiments to try and abolish the stream of consciuosness using isolation chambers where the subject was made to float on hypertonic saline in a closed dark chamber to eliminate all extraneous sensory input )) .

The mind keeps generating thoughts all the time . Try it yourself ; find some quiet corner and lie down eyes closed... and become a specatator of your mind... You'll find a string of thoughts one followiing the other that cant be stopped , no matter how hard you try to clear your mind , you'll be thinking of something !

One should try and keep those thoughts overshadowed by concentrating on the sensory input of our bodies...and by consciously verbalising in our minds the various steps to keep us focussed on the shot right up to the follow through ..

The stray thought during the critical time of letting off a shot threatens the positive outcome .

Elmas

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Elmas wrote in part "...there were experiments to try and abolish the stream of consciuosness using isolation chambers where the subject was made to float on hypertonic saline in a closed dark chamber to eliminate all extraneous sensory input ..."

Some of you guys put waaay too much science in all this.


I am trying to simplify. I like Champion Coach Buljung (sp?) saying "No stinking thinking".

Elmas wrote:
One should try and keep those thoughts overshadowed by concentrating on the sensory input of our bodies...

I agree. But I classify ' consciously verbalising in our minds the various steps to keep us focussed on the shot right up to the follow through ' as thinking, which is what we do not want to do while executing the shot process.

I also agree with JackH comments about our being too analytical about what we are doing.

Shot a different match this weekend - metal silhouettes with an AP. If you are not familiar with this sport, it is chickens at 10 yd, pigs at 12.5 yd, turkeys at 15 yd, rams at 18 yd. the chickens are a bit larger than the 9 ring on a standard AP target. The other animals are scaled appropriately for the distance.
It was a great match and experience and I learned a lot. Because it is a slightly different discipline than 10M AP, I trained hard and developed a shot process I had confidence in. At the match I concentrated on sensory input viz. the target and the motion of the red dot (sight) on the target. I knew from training that my subconscious would start the trigger at the right time (minimum wobble), if I kept my conscious from interfering. So I didn't think. Just brought up the pistol, concentrated on the target and keeping the dot on the target. Hit 19 of 20 silhouettes.

HI Fred,

We occasionally have AP silhouette shoots at our club too - 19 out of 20 is a hell of a score. I'm glad you live in RI.

F. Paul in Denver

F. Paul in Denver wrote: I'm glad you live in RI.

I have to score that one off the paper :-)

Elmas wrote: No conscious individual can stop thinking !! In fact the so-called 'Stream Of Consciousness' can't be stopped !

You didn't try long enough. To achieve an "empty mind" you have to resolve all the presssing issues. You also have to let go of all the commanding verbalizations from your conscious and just observe with no judgment. This isn't something easy and it isn't permanent, until you die (if even then). To reach this state, one must spend many hours of meditation, addressing all the issues that "come to mind." Every issue that can be, must be resolved - a decision must be made. All other issues must be set aside with reassurance that they will be addressed again at the next meditation. For best results the meditation should have a fixed schedule. Once the subconscious can trust the conscious to return to an unresolved issue at the scheduled time, things that creep in when unwanted, such as during a competition, can be set aside. You must be true to resolving these issues later, or the subconscious won't let them be set aside next time.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Ed Hall wrote:

Elmas wrote: No conscious individual can stop thinking !! In fact the so-called 'Stream Of Consciousness' can't be stopped !

You didn't try long enough. To achieve an "empty mind" you have to resolve all the presssing issues. You also have to let go of all the commanding verbalizations from your conscious and just observe with no judgment. This isn't something easy and it isn't permanent, until you die (if even then). To reach this state, one must spend many hours of meditation, addressing all the issues that "come to mind." Every issue that can be, must be resolved - a decision must be made. All other issues must be set aside with reassurance that they will be addressed again at the next meditation. For best results the meditation should have a fixed schedule. Once the subconscious can trust the conscious to return to an unresolved issue at the scheduled time, things that creep in when unwanted, such as during a competition, can be set aside. You must be true to resolving these issues later, or the subconscious won't let them be set aside next time.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Ed, this is truly an informed response... got me thinking ...

Does one need some sort of 'mentor' or 'guide' ... It is a well known fact that most attempts tend to fail on account of the 'deceptions and tricks' our minds can play on us.... We are notoriously incapable of 'detached' self assessment .

To clear one's mind this way , seems to me a lifelong quest , even more time consuming than our quest for "the consistently perfect shot ad nauseam" !!

I want more of your thoughts on this.. its interesting and important.


Elmas.

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Elmas,
Have you read any of John Dreyer's material? http://www.bullseyepistol.com/zeninfo.htm

Fred Mannis wrote:Elmas,
Have you read any of John Dreyer's material? http://www.bullseyepistol.com/zeninfo.htm

Fred,

I have now !! thank you for the link... an absorbing and fascinating read.... Actually what brought me to Target Pistol Shooting was a book I read many years ago that impressed me very much " Zen in the Art of Archery" by a German Diplomat stationed in Japan ..Eugene Herrigel ? .

However , all one can say is : " Easier said than done !! "' The joy is in the trying .


Elmas

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Elmas wrote: To clear one's mind this way , seems to me a lifelong quest , even more time consuming than our quest for "the consistently perfect shot ad nauseam" !!

It is more of an "ongoing processs" than a "quest" and can be quite the opposite in practice. To illustrate, "empty mind" might be similar to "full stomach." You might seek both, and they may each be fullfilled briefly (empty mind being much more brief than full stomach<smile>), as neither is a continuous state. The search for an empty mind in which to perform a task is more a search for inner peace to be able to perform without the intrusion of extraneous thoughts. As with the full stomach, you will not retain the empty mind indefinitely. In shooting, "empty mind" is the ability to make a determined shot without any interfering mental activity. But "empty mind" has a more far-reaching use than just shooting or even sports.

Many try to squelch the onslaught of thoughts by filling the conscious mind with mantras and such in an attempt to force focus to a single subject and hold off the rest. We try different subjects thoughout our progress, with each providing a moment of success. These moments deceive us with the desire to find the right subject, when the true need is to empty our conscious of all thoughts. What are these thoughts that we try to hold at bay, that attack us when not desired? Anything imaginable, literally! But if we analyze them, we find them to either be issues we've not taken care of yet, or even descriptors of doubts we harbor about our ability to succeed in our task. These unsolved issues and doubts are distractors from our confidence in achieving that which we seek - in this case the elusive ten.

We will never be rid of all issues - new ones arise all the time. But, if we construct a way to resolve all that can be resolved and address all others effectively, we can reach a state where we can enjoy moments of pure observation without judgment. This is the state that is most conducive to high performance. When an elite competitor can't recall what he was thinking about when he shot that good score, it is probably because he wasn't thinking about anything at all. He simply has the confidence to proceed through the shot in a most natural way. Many know they weren't thinking of anything.

To reach the state may take many sessions, but you might be able to get tiny glimses along the way. Basically, start with some quiet time when you can examine each thought that presents itself and make a decision about that thought. When you are comfortable, let that thought go and address the next. At first, there will seem to be an endless stream, but as time goes by you will find moments between thoughts. They won't be long, at first, but they will lengthen if you stay with it.

The important part is what you do with the thoughts that can't be resolved immediately. You must set these aside specifically to be addressed at a schedule future time. Even more importantly, address them when that time arrives. Only if you are true to yourself in meeting these scheduled returns, will you be able to set aside things when you need to clear your mind for the task at hand. If you constantly break your schedule, issues will refuse to be set aside and your attempts at an empty mind will only invite those issues to arise.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

have thoughts but dont hold onto them. when the same thought keeps running around, the worse that can happen usually happen to me. would be great if i could last a whole 1hr 55mins in that state of mind.

Ed Hall wrote:Many try to squelch the onslaught of thoughts by filling the conscious mind with mantras and such in an attempt to force focus to a single subject and hold off the rest. We try different subjects thoughout our progress, with each providing a moment of success. These moments deceive us with the desire to find the right subject, when the true need is to empty our conscious of all thoughts.

I don't really agree with that. The problem with searching for an empty mind is that it is very easy to disrupt it and it's a very fragile situation. The human mind has to have something to focus on so a more sensible idea is to focus on aspects of the shot process. Mentally rehearse the perfect shot before switching attention to the foresight at the correct time. Since we can only concentrate on one thing at a time, the result will be the same, or ideally better, than trying to run on empty.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote: Mentally rehearse the perfect shot before switching attention to the foresight at the correct time. Since we can only concentrate on one thing at a time, the result will be the same, or ideally better, than trying to run on empty.

Rob.

Rob,
I think you misundersand what Ed is describing.

Your concentrating on the foresight is, IMHO, equivalent to Ed's 'In shooting, "empty mind" is the ability to make a determined shot without any interfering mental activity'.

If I concentrate on the foresight, without any verbalization like 'focus on the foresight', and allow this sensory input to completely fill my mind, I will make the shot without allowing stray thoughts to interrupt the process. I have, on rare occasions, achieved this state. It is, as you say a very fragile state and I envy those who can enter it at will.

"Feel Center"

Fred

The information about this coach is grossly incorrect because the submitters lack the training and instructional knowledge to make a proper evaluation.
Have written another book titled: Coaching Manual for the Coaching of the mental aspects of competitive Rifle, Pistol, and Shotgun,

Chet Skinner, Coach

You're really scraping the barrel on this one Chet; trying to re-activate a thread that's been dormant for almost 4 years.

Does this latest book contain all your own work or have you again plagiarised the work of others?

Have you bothered seeking a revue from respected sporting or psychological journals or do you still believe that you know better than the trained and qualified professionals?

By the way, when did Scott lift your ban from this board?

Been all those places and done those things:
Living in Norway, I've read Anne G. Jeppesen's book and attended her lectures. And I buy gear in Stenvaag's shop :-)

Herrigel's Zen book got me started in archery in the 1970s more than 30 years ago. I'm an officially certified archery coach.
I've "debugged" too many archers to remember their names.
I've attended seminars abroad, some of the best personal advice I got in Germany from Tom Strickland. Archery gurus used to recommend "the inner game of tennis" as one of the best books, don't think I got around to reading it, but I've been fed plenty of quotes. Etc. etc.

And what does it all make me?
I'm just an old average amateur shooter, and a slightly better coach because I've experienced all those troubles people have....
And making others shoot better always makes me happy.

When everything clicks, I'm able to shoot tens, and this makes me happy. But it's not important enough for me to become a champion.
But I guess I know:

If you don't ENJOY standing at the line, you've LOST!
If you only shoot to impress others, you're not really interested in shooting.
You need to be honest about these things and your role in the situation.
It's OK to go to a competition just because it's fun to be at the same line as those who are better than you.
Victories are not gifts/presents from above, you may score a couple of lucky shots, but not 60 in a row. That's the product of your skill developed thorugh patient training. You need to enjoy training to do that.
Impatient, sloppy low quality training is worse than no training at all.
I've learned these things through 30 years of mixed experience.

Today I'm old enough to accept being beaten by young beginners. That's very nice, and it makes me relax and have fun. No fear!
And it seems that this may actually make me shoot better :-)

The secret in the old samurai books? A good samurai considers himself already dead, so has nothing to loose. The mortal fight is just a game taken seriously. With nothing to fear, you can concentrate on the task and stop those stray thoughts. We have all experienced those few "blank mind" perfect shots: that's Zen. Simple, can only be controlled by "no control", and a great experience!

I guess that's what keeps me ticking.
Enjoy shooting, don't worry, be happy....
It's just a game, so it's supposed to be fun.

That's all there's to it, and your club mates will be your friends even if they shoot better than you!

typo: sorry

That should be Tim Strickland.......
20 years ago and that short personal encounter is still important