TargetTalk

and the current Scottish 100yd champion is Susan Jackson :)

RobStubbs wrote:What a load of tosh <with respect>. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world. Western Europe doesn't dictate how you shoot. The ISSF govern their own events but they are not 'Western Europe' although their headquarters may be there. Rob.

The ISSF is very Euro-centric in terms of its administration & management, though not so in terms of results (which are moving East quite rapidly). If what this person pointed out was such "tosh" then ask yourself how many ISSF championships (i.e. international events counting towards Olympic or World Cup points) are held in :

1. the southern hemisphere?
2. 3rd world countries?
3. Islamic countries?

Compare your answers (relative to the number of countries involved) with the number of ISSF championship events held in Europe and you will see a story emerge.

I live in a 3rd world country, and in terms of the ISSF we are out in the shooting wilderness.

NSiv wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:...how many ISSF championships (i.e. international events counting towards Olympic or World Cup points) are held in :

1. the southern hemisphere?
2. 3rd world countries?
3. Islamic countries?

Pretty much every one that is applied for. Consider how many in these groups apply for a World Cup or Regional Championship.

This seems to be more a rifle/pistol thing - without doing a count over the last few years, there seems to be a reasonable number of shotgun ISSF Championships in these groups.

Spencer C

NSiv wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:What a load of tosh <with respect>. Stop trying to blame the rest of the world. Western Europe doesn't dictate how you shoot. The ISSF govern their own events but they are not 'Western Europe' although their headquarters may be there. Rob.

The ISSF is very Euro-centric in terms of its administration & management, though not so in terms of results (which are moving East quite rapidly). If what this person pointed out was such "tosh" then ask yourself how many ISSF championships (i.e. international events counting towards Olympic or World Cup points) are held in :

1. the southern hemisphere?
2. 3rd world countries?
3. Islamic countries?

Compare your answers (relative to the number of countries involved) with the number of ISSF championship events held in Europe and you will see a story emerge.

I live in a 3rd world country, and in terms of the ISSF we are out in the shooting wilderness.

How many of them have the facilities to host World Cup events? I live in Canada, which is not in the southern hemisphere, is not a third world country and is not Islamic. How many world cups have we had? Try zero. How is a third world country suppose to host a WC? I think they should be spending their money on something else. Have you been to Europe? Have you seen the facilities? That's why they host them, besides shooting is actually popular there.

Bill Poole wrote: western europe does not dictate how NRA shoots, they DO have a big say in how USAShooting shoots, since USAS shoots ISSF events per ISSF rules. And ISSF is dominated by europeans.

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

Poole,
No it isn't dominated by anyone. Have a look through the ISSF organogram. You will see representatives from Western and Eastern Europe, Asia, Australasia and suprise, suprise America. Not only that but every nations governing body feeds into the ISSF so they will get feedback from pretty much every country of the world.

Anyway rather than moan here about the situation, how about trying to influence your governing bodies and in turn the ISSF. There is certainly nothing to prevent men and women competing side by side in ISSF events - we do that in the UK all the time. Women typically shoot 60 shots just like the men, the only difference being their first 40 are the womens event in their alloted time.

Rob.

Wow Nicole

You sure opened a hornet's nest. I was taught it's not a wise thing to pock a stick in a hornet's nest even if it looks unoccupied. Nevertheless, here goes...

I agree with the basic thrust of your argument but can also see that if there was a straight amalgamation of men's and women's events that it would mean less opportunity for women in the long run.

Perhaps it is necessary to take a step at a time. The first one I would be pushing for, if I was a woman, would be the equality of having a 60 shot air pistol match. I can remember when men's matches were 40 shots as well and I have a gut feeling that the only reason the women's match stayed at 40 when the men's became 60 was that the women shooters tired more quickly having to crank the FWB65 and FWB80 pistols which were the top of the range pistols of their day.

HBP wrote:The separation of male and female shooting events lies right in the heart of the ISSF, in Western Europe. In a competitive environment, no western European man likes being beaten by a woman (no matter how modern, or free thinking, or 21st century he might profess to be).

Oh please. I live in Britain. I am a girl. I win lots of stuff (have been County Champion). I have encountered two bad attitudes:
1) slight irritation because I win more than others do (others being of either gender)
2) people getting huffy because I cannot tell them the secret of shooting well

There is one person who I think can't stand being beaten by a girl. But he's the only one I know, our standard of shooting is about the same, and it makes for great competitive chatter. ;-) It helps me too, because if my scores are going up and they're good and he can see them, that puts pressure on him... chauvanism affects the blokes shooting as well you know. ;-)

Actually.. I have encountered the "coffin dodgers" that Bruce referred to. But they're easily ignored, and declining in number. And quite amusing.

Nicole
We have a couple of sisters who shoot with us. They are world class maybe in the top seven women shooters in the country. Their father and I were talking about this issue and they all prefer to be in a seperate class than males because to acheive their goal they have less competitors to overcome. Their chances of attending the Olympics would be reduced if they were to shoot in a combined class. At our NRA matches thou they always win and no one has any problems with that.

Why?

Because Margaret Murdoch really embarrassed the European men at the 1976 Olympics when she and Lanny Bassham tied for the Gold. Notice after that certain rules were made separating the sexes.

I didn't read all the posts here(I have terrible time reading a computer screen) but I can add my two cents. I'm aging myself but here goes.

As a junior smallbore shooter I had the great pleasure of shooting next to Margaret once. Great shooter, greater experience for me. At the '74 worlds where medals were awarded for each stage I believe she won at least one gold. She also was a shooting member of at least one USA gold winning team. She and Lanny tied at Montreal in three position. After using the Creedmoor method of tie breaking, more than once as I recall (going through the targets backwards to see who dropped the last shot), Lanny was awarded the Gold. Many believe that at this level two golds were in order.

I don't think the IOC or ISU were ready for this much eqaulity so to assure it wouldn't keep happening and to give women more opportunity to compete at the Olympics, Women's only events were established. Prior to this women competitors at the shooting venues were a rarity.

Personally I think women won the battle. I'd love to be able to not have to reload to shoot "Centerfire" and I'd much rather shoot only 40 shots in Air Pistol(like men used to until it became necessary to separate the scores).

Alex

The Top Gun event is OPEN.

I would like to see the number of Women shooting increase in all events.

I agree with several of the comments of others if we mix all the shooting events we would reduce the total number of opportunities for both sides.

It makes wonder how many of the women shooting NRA are wifes just along for the ride with the husbands.

From what I have seen women shooting olympic events are there because they want to be and have a goal in mind.

Chris wrote:It makes wonder how many of the women shooting NRA are wifes just along for the ride with the husbands.

In my experience, it's zero. But what do I know?

Chris wrote:It makes wonder how many of the women shooting NRA are wifes just along for the ride with the husbands.

Huh?

Celeste wrote:Because Margaret Murdoch really embarrassed the European men at the 1976 Olympics when she and Lanny Bassham tied for the Gold. Notice after that certain rules were made separating the sexes.

Oh yes, that's right, blame the Europeans.
Though I believe it was the American bloke Lanny who challenged his score when he saw Margaret had won it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I am a girl, in Britain, who hasn't got a clue why you americans are so keen to blame European men!

Celeste wrote:Why?

Because Margaret Murdoch really embarrassed the European men at the 1976 Olympics when she and Lanny Bassham tied for the Gold. Notice after that certain rules were made separating the sexes.

What a load of tripe, once again. Are you trying to suggest the IOC or ISSF or their predecessors are European ? Get real, read the facts and then post something sensible. All these bodies have representation from across the world including USA, so trying looking closer to home for the real answer, but hey it's easier to blame the rest of the world right ?

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:

Celeste wrote:Why?

Because Margaret Murdoch really embarrassed the European men at the 1976 Olympics when she and Lanny Bassham tied for the Gold. Notice after that certain rules were made separating the sexes.

What a load of tripe, once again. Are you trying to suggest the IOC or ISSF or their predecessors are European ? Get real, read the facts and then post something sensible. All these bodies have representation from across the world including USA, so trying looking closer to home for the real answer, but hey it's easier to blame the rest of the world right ?

Rob.

Mr. Stubbs I suggest you take a look at the ISSF executive committee, there is one North American on the whole committee. I suggest the Europeans are very well represented and have always controled the direction of the ISSF.

The breakdown of member associations is:

Americas 38
Europe 55
Asia 40
Africa 17
Oceania 5

So the Europeans pretty much control the agenda. Personally I can understand it, as that is really where shooting is most popular.

But as stated before if the events were combined the women would most likely suffer as they just have a smaller pool of talent to draw from. This is not a slam against women as I'm sure there are quite a few that could clean the mens clocks

Richard H wrote:
The breakdown of member associations is:

Americas 38
Europe 55
Asia 40
Africa 17
Oceania 5

So the Europeans pretty much control the agenda. Personally I can understand it, as that is really where shooting is most popular.

But as stated before if the events were combined the women would most likely suffer as they just have a smaller pool of talent to draw from. This is not a slam against women as I'm sure there are quite a few that could clean the mens clocks

As you have just shown (but only for the ISSF) - Europeans do not control anything - they represent less than half - less than 40% in fact. I don't have the figures for IOC etc but there will be no greater bias.

Anyway this started off as an NRA / USA shooting question - who dictates the shooting conduct of those organisations - not europe that's for sure.

Also rather than moaning about sexual (in)equality here, how about putting pen to paper and contacting the ISSF and others ? How many people have actually done anything constructive and requested the rules are looked at once again ? Not very many I would guess.

Rob.

Also rather than moaning about sexual (in)equality here, how about putting pen to paper and contacting the ISSF and others ? How many people have actually done anything constructive and requested the rules are looked at once again ? Not very many I would guess.

In light of the Olympic Committee desire to limit events, complaining to them would probably be a real good way to give them a reason to cut out half the shooting events. Doesn't seem like a very good way to promote shooting.

RobStubbs wrote:

Richard H wrote:
The breakdown of member associations is:

Americas 38
Europe 55
Asia 40
Africa 17
Oceania 5

So the Europeans pretty much control the agenda. Personally I can understand it, as that is really where shooting is most popular.

But as stated before if the events were combined the women would most likely suffer as they just have a smaller pool of talent to draw from. This is not a slam against women as I'm sure there are quite a few that could clean the mens clocks

As you have just shown (but only for the ISSF) - Europeans do not control anything - they represent less than half - less than 40% in fact. I don't have the figures for IOC etc but there will be no greater bias.

Anyway this started off as an NRA / USA shooting question - who dictates the shooting conduct of those organisations - not europe that's for sure.

Also rather than moaning about sexual (in)equality here, how about putting pen to paper and contacting the ISSF and others ? How many people have actually done anything constructive and requested the rules are looked at once again ? Not very many I would guess.

Rob.

I don't believe my post was moaning it was just pointing out a truth, it may not be a truth you like but it is the facts. When the Europeans control the largest single voting bloick in the ISSF and the vast majority on the Executive Committee are Europeans they do control the direction of the organization. North Americans have two votes, three if you count Mexico. What the Europeans have is a controling intrest and you don't have to have greater than 50% to control something.

What a load of tripe, once again. Are you trying to suggest the IOC or ISSF or their predecessors are European ? Get real, read the facts and then post something sensible. All these bodies have representation from across the world including USA, so trying looking closer to home for the real answer, but hey it's easier to blame the rest of the world right ?

Rob.

So as you suggested the facts have been read and now you shift the conversation to the IOC (the IOC doesn't directly control the shooting sports) and I haven't looked but I'm sure the Europeans dominate that as well, do the math there are more countries in Europe than North America.

I really don't understand why you take it so peronally, it seemed to start out as just a discussion about why the events were seperated, personally I think all the points raised have valid merit. Rather than getting upset provide some actual evidence to support your position, going off on people isn't going to change what they think.

RobStubbs wrote:Anyway this started off as an NRA / USA shooting question - who dictates the shooting conduct of those organisations - not europe that's for sure.

Sorry, Rob, I beg to differ. I started the thread and it was not about the NRA. There are no NRA competitions segregated on the basis of gender. None. Zero. Anyone, male or female, can always enter any NRA event. You don't even have to be an NRA member.

It's pretty obvious that the NRA membership is overwhelmingly male despite some real intent and effort to recruit more women. Some of their failure to recruit more women appears due to incompetence (e.g., I gave the example of buying an NRA Life membership but getting a guy's leather jacket, which I'll never wear) and some is because their political agenda simply plays better with men than women here in the US. But we can be very, very clear on one point: The NRA is not at all sexist in its competitions. My experience is that they'd like to recruit women to shoot right alongside men in every possible event.

Further, though I asked the question about why USAS shooting is sexist, which is here in the US, I think it's been amply answered that the sexist dictates are not coming from here in the US, but rather from outside the US. It's not a US thing at all. The dictates of sexism in international shooting come from somewhere else in the world. All we're arguing about now is where.