TargetTalk

TenMetrePeter wrote:

rmca wrote: - Think now about the guy who would win because he scored more points, and didn't because of handicaps... how does he feel? Does he get pumped up to compete again? I wouldn't...

Those folk have plenty of scratch comps and leagues to compete in. There's no need to handicap every match. its nice for the 75 year old or 12 year old to get their name on a trophy for a good season even if they shoot 70% of max. Have you ever tried coaching a 75 year old who's been at it since 1960?

Well, in fact I do...

I have two young folks at my club that are 89 and 86.
They both compete in the veteran category (+50) and the reason they keep coming to the matches, is for the joy of shooting and competing.
None of them would want an handicap.
They still strive to improve, but they compare their scores with the ones from previous matches, not with folks 30 years younger.

And yes, they are a rare breed, but it's something to aspire to...

Rover wrote:Maybe it's only in the U.S., but we NRA shooters already have a system in place. Everyone shoots the same match, but the competitors have a "rating" issued by the NRA based on past performance. Thus everyone is competing against their own level with awards and prizes. They can still "win" their class and also have something to "shoot for", too.

Class rating is fine for a larger club or regional/national.

But for a small club that might have less than a dozen shooters, you might have only 1 or 2 guys in a particular class. A handicap system would let the entire club compete against each other on a somewhat leveled basis.
Yes someone may win with a lower raw score. But for some of the handicap shooter, the joy/satisfaction/feeling of winning a match is immense, and will keep them coming back and shooting.
The trick is how to work and manage the handicap system so that it is fair; what score or % do you handicap to, how often do you recompute the handicap, do you recompute handicap if they win a match, how do you manage sandbaggers, etc.
And someone has to spend time to do all the handicap computations. It is easier today with a computer, but someone still has to collect the score and enter them into the computer, then distribute the new handicaps.

As was mentioned, having prizes/awards for both raw and handicap scores would address both parties.

BTW, when I golfed, I would get as high a handicap as they would give me (30+), yeah I was that BAD.
But I enjoyed playing with a college classmate that had a 6 handicap. I never beat him, but so what, we had fun. And for some reason, I usually shot better when I played with him than when I played with others.

The system resembles a little like in golf where they use 'handicaps'.
We have tried it in our club matches and it doesn't work. Even a 'bad' shooter can have a 'good' day. Though I must say that a bad shooter does not exist in my opinion.
Instead, we created groups of shooters according to their age. And created a group (regardless their ages) of starters. And that system seems to work.

If you need to give away a participation prize..... Make it closest to a random unknown score so anybody can fluke into it...... I would smile at that one....

gn303 wrote:The system resembles a little like in golf where they use 'handicaps'.
We have tried it in our club matches and it doesn't work. Even a 'bad' shooter can have a 'good' day. Though I must say that a bad shooter does not exist in my opinion.
Instead, we created groups of shooters according to their age. And created a group (regardless their ages) of starters. And that system seems to work.

I remember in my father's golf club, if you won a match, your handicap was immediately reduced by X strokes.
- In this case, if you win a match shooting your "normal" game, and everyone else shot a bad game, it can actually be bad for you. Because your handicap is reduced.
- If you sandbag, you might win ONE match, then you are back where you probably should be. Unless you sandbag again, and turn in only poor scores for the next Y games, to raise your handicap again.
- But as you said, bad golfers can have good days. I have had a few good days, but they were vastly out numbered by my normal BAD days. And in my case, BAD golfers do exist, ME.

And bad shooters do exist. When I first started 10m AR, I had trouble keeping all the shots inside the 1 ring. And sometimes I missed the target completely. That was BAD, and I almost quit shooting 10m AR.
Out of desperation, I got coaching, just to get all my shots inside the 1 ring.

I recall reading that Jeff Cooper often promoted a prize (often a pistol?) for the person who scored in the middle of the field. I kind of like that idea.

Australia + New Zealand use 'grades' to group competitors of similar skills together which is quite a nice way of acknowledging performance and 'grade breaks' are celebrated as much as a win. There is also an Open Competition, where the raw performance/skill is celebrated.

560+ is 'A-Grade' for Air Pistol, for instance; and that would have a 1st, 2nd, 3rd of the Grade and would be acknowledged by means of a certificate of merit. Same for B,C,D grades. This is for the smaller provisional titles, the Island Championships and National Championship is an 'Open' competition.

Normalising results is another kettle of fish, and is something I am not in favour of. From the moment you modify a score you are no longer dealing with a sport result, but rather a human choice of measurement of a performance.

Back when I used to shoot Bench Rest, I donated a case of beer to be awarded to the low man.

I doubt it made him try harder next time.

Rover wrote:Back when I used to shoot Bench Rest, I donated a case of beer to be awarded to the low man.

I doubt it made him try harder next time.

If you had used a decent handicap system he would only get the beer next time and then only if he showed improvement over the first time. Nobody is suggesting rewarding "losers" except with a wooden spoon - that's probably a British concept too.

I have PM'd the OP with offer of our spreadsheet. Looks like the only help he's going to get.

Rover wrote:Back when I used to shoot Bench Rest, I donated a case of beer to be awarded to the low man.

I doubt it made him try harder next time.

Did you donate good beer or crappy beer?

spektr wrote:Shooting is like golf

Then you confusingly go on to be against the idea of playing with handicaps.

Competing against a lower ranked (higher handicap) player provides a challenge to the higher ranked player to make them work for the win. They can still be a-holes and gloat about their crushingly superior scratch score if that's the kind of person they are.

Handicapping is superior, IMO, to classification systems.

And for those that are so ego driven that they must compete by scratch score alone, go off and play only in elite leagues. And lets see how long your ego survives and you continue the sport as you chances of winning will probably never measure up to much.