TargetTalk

Ouch ... this is making my head hurt.

Evo ...LP10 ..lever up ..lever down ...dry fire, lever up..dry fire lever down..and on and on.

Xman wrote:Ouch ... this is making my head hurt.

Evo ...LP10 ..lever up ..lever down ...dry fire, lever up..dry fire lever down..and on and on.

It's not that hard. Lever up=dry fire. Lever down=real fire.

Okay, so it sounds like we have almost enough info for an answer. Can someone with an evo that puffs see if the air discharges from the barrel?

Chia wrote:Okay, so it sounds like we have almost enough info for an answer. Can someone with an evo that puffs see if the air discharges from the barrel?

I can confirm it discharges air... very little, but enough to make a downy feather react at the muzzle.

All right. There's a small argument for it being an accidental discharge, but much more against it.

For: it could, technically, move a pellet forward. Like, maybe a few millimeters? So it is, if you stretch things and are a jerk, within the plain language definition of "propelling charge." But bluntly, it's a lousy argument at best.

Against: There is at least one LP10 that has the "puff" in this thread. Come on folks. Enforcement against this type of thing would have occurred before. Steyr has won how many Olympic medals, as their advertisements love to point out? If it were a problem, this would have occurred a long time before. Second, while if you stare at a dictionary you may be able to make this out to be a "propelling charge" the spirit of the law is clearly against a discharge sufficient to actually shoot the pellet. That's dangerous and can injure someone. This isn't. It does not present any threat, even with a loaded chamber, of accidentally shooting the pellet in an unsafe direction. Sufficient air to puff a downy feather probably won't even get that pellet out of the barrel. It is, at most, an irritant to the owner when the pellet gets slightly stuck in the loading area.

That's my .02. Personally I wouldn't sweat it. No one else seems to have until this point.

Chia wrote:Enforcement against this type of thing would have occurred before.

If it only happens in the circumstances described by Mtl_Biker then it's extremely unlikely to have happened in a major match.

After dry firing you would open the loading lever, not close it.

Agreed. That's part of what I thought of posting. I couldn't imagine a scenario where someone would do this in competition, but since I have never been to one I held my tongue.

6.11.2.2 Any release of the propelling charge, after MATCH Firing starts, without a hit on the target will be scored as a miss. Dry firing without release of the propelling charge is permitted except during Finals.

This has been enforced under the situation of unscrewing the air cylinder at the end of a match before the stop command has been given. Unscrewing the cylinder releases the propelling charge. I have seen this done at World Cup competitions. Since the competitor has already fired the required number of shots, this action constitutes too many shots in the event, which entails a 2 point penalty.

So, it doesn't matter if the air comes out the barrel, out of the action, or out of the cylinder. It is a release of the propelling charge and constitutes a miss.

But it only does it if you half cock the pistol.
i.e. Pull the lever up to the first click then return the lever to the home position.

Don't think that would be standard procedure in a match.

Marc Orvin wrote:6.11.2.2 Any release of the propelling charge, after MATCH Firing starts, without a hit on the target will be scored as a miss. Dry firing without release of the propelling charge is permitted except during Finals.

This has been enforced under the situation of unscrewing the air cylinder at the end of a match before the stop command has been given. Unscrewing the cylinder releases the propelling charge. I have seen this done at World Cup competitions. Since the competitor has already fired the required number of shots, this action constitutes too many shots in the event, which entails a 2 point penalty.

So, it doesn't matter if the air comes out the barrel, out of the action, or out of the cylinder. It is a release of the propelling charge and constitutes a miss.

This strikes me as being really ridiculous. It sounds like somebody is throwing their weight around for the sake of their ego. If that is the sort of nonsense that goes on with officiating at a World Cup event, in some ways I'm glad I don't compete at that level.

It stems from another rule stating that you are not allowed to change air cylinders on the line. Consider this: You are about to take a shot when the competitor behind you decides to unscrew his cylinder, creating a blast of air to startle you. That is why it is not allowed.

It isn't about throwing your weight around. It is about everyone on the field of play being given equal conditions. Those who violate the rules are penalized. Otherwise these clowns would be doing this on purpose just to screw with the person next to them. Is that ok?? And if the rule is not enforced, then next time it happens folks will complain that it has never been enforced before, so why now?

Do I agree with ALL the rules? No. Do I enforce them anyway? Yes. And for those who don't know the rules, that used to be a fair argument when you had to buy a rule book from Munich. But now the rules are all right there on your cell phone for the cost of a few cents in data. No excuse for not knowing.

7.1.2 and 8.1.2 are pertinent. It is incumbent on you to know the rules.

nick marshall wrote:But it only does it if you half cock the pistol.
i.e. Pull the lever up to the first click then return the lever to the home position.

Don't think that would be standard procedure in a match.

So you're saying don't go off half-cocked at the match? :)

Marc Orvin wrote:6.11.2.2 Any release of the propelling charge, after MATCH Firing starts, without a hit on the target will be scored as a miss. Dry firing without release of the propelling charge is permitted except during Finals.

This has been enforced under the situation of unscrewing the air cylinder at the end of a match before the stop command has been given. Unscrewing the cylinder releases the propelling charge. I have seen this done at World Cup competitions. Since the competitor has already fired the required number of shots, this action constitutes too many shots in the event, which entails a 2 point penalty.

What you have just described does not fall under the rule you stated. In fact, unless there's something extra to what David Levene put up, (I'm not a rule encyclopedia yet, I'm leaving that title to David) I don't see how what you describe is compliant with 6.11.2.2. Under 6.11.2.2, if you have a discharge after match firing starts, it is scored as a miss. No deduction of points is mentioned, nor does the rule contemplate too many shots being fired. Is there another rule that covers too many shots being fired? That may be the one under which they were sanctioned.

And if a judge/ref cited that rule at me, unless there is a rule that has a worse punishment than the one described, I would appeal the sh!t out of that ruling. If there is another rule potentially implicated that has a worse punishment, I would probably stay quiet and take the 2-point penalty rather than risk the greater sanction.

And last, what you're talking about has nothing to do with the puff. It has to do with the propelling shot rule, but the hiss and air escaping from twisting off a steyr cylinder is MUCH louder than what you get with the puff. I'm not sure a judge/ref would even notice the puff. It's really not that loud.

Chia wrote:Is there another rule that covers too many shots being fired? That may be the one under which they were sanctioned.

6.11.7.1 Too many shots in an event or position
If an athlete fires more shots in the event or position than are provided for in the program, the extra shot(s) must be annulled on the last competition target(s). If the shot(s) cannot be identified, the highest value shot(s) must be annulled on the last competition target. The athlete must also be penalized by a deduction of two (2) points for each excessive shot fired, deducted from the lowest value shot(s) in the first series.

Marc Orvin wrote:Do I agree with ALL the rules? No. Do I enforce them anyway? Yes.

Some athletes tend to consider the strict application of the rules as being unjust when they cannot see how it affects the result.

Judges consider the strict application of the rules, and the spirit of the rules, as supporting all of the other athletes who have made the effort to comply with them.

Chia wrote:And if a judge/ref cited that rule at me, unless there is a rule that has a worse punishment than the one described, I would appeal the sh!t out of that ruling. If there is another rule potentially implicated that has a worse punishment, I would probably stay quiet and take the 2-point penalty rather than risk the greater sanction.

You need to read the rules fast... if you did that you would be out of pocket 50€ + 100€ and still end up with a warning (yellow card) and a 2 point deduction (green card)!

You don't read fast, you read before. These rules are not that difficult to get and follow. I realize I'm probably speaking from a different pov from most here, but if you are competing at the level where this stuff matters, it is absolutely you and your coaches' job to know what's going on in the rulebook. No one else is going to save you if something happens.

Marc, I can see how combining the two would work and I agree with you about startling athletes. I still don't think it applies to the puff because 1 the puff is nowhere near as loud and 2 is therefore less likely to get sanctioned. 3 the puff comes from one of the most popular brands of AP, and an adverse decision would have bad ramifications, and 4 no one is going to do the mechanical motions necessary to create the puff at that level of competition.

Thanks again everyone for engaging. Hopefully we gave the OP some useful information.

David Levene wrote: Judges consider the strict application of the rules, and the spirit of the rules, as supporting all of the other athletes who have made the effort to comply with them.

Thanks David. Perfect explanation.

One point about the puff. With music during the qualification rounds, it is unlikely that the puff would be heard by an official unless the official was right behind the shooter who "puffed." Still, the rule does not mention anything about how loud the puff must be. A discharge of the propellant charge is just that. No order of magnitude is specified.

However, I think it has been sufficiently outlined in the previous posts how one with this particular pistol can avoid this problem.

Yeah I think we're all in agreement with that. Thanks for the insight, Marc, it was definitely helpful here.

Chia wrote:You don't read fast, you read before. These rules are not that difficult to get and follow. I realize I'm probably speaking from a different pov from most here, but if you are competing at the level where this stuff matters, it is absolutely you and your coaches' job to know what's going on in the rulebook.

Absolutely agree. That is why I asked the question. The "puff" is bound to be a distraction to someone on the line. At least technically.

Chia wrote:Thanks again everyone for engaging. Hopefully we gave the OP some useful information.

Well, it's reassuring to know the "puff" is a common observation and not a problem with my pistol. As noted by others, it's easy to avoid during a match. Partly, I would like to adjust to correct it, but if it is that common, it probably is not worth the effort.

The LP10 is perfect (for me) in every way. Steyr obviously spent tons of time and effort to create this follow-on to the LP1. I'm pretty sure they had to discover this minor annoyance during development. (It rook me less than 15 minutes to casually find it as a new owner.) I just find it curious that they chose not to fix it somehow.

Pardinis also make the pfft. But I don't let mine. Why should I?
You can easily adjust your pistol so it doesn't.
Loosen springpreassure with its screw, or leave yout pistol cocked for some days.
You will loose velocity, so why should you?
Merry Christmas