TargetTalk

deadeyedick wrote:

Thanks everyone for your informative comments. From them I gather that the TOZ 36 would need a new cylinder in order to shoot .32 S&W Longs. However, I am still confused about the different original cartridges. It seems like there must be THREE different 7.62 Nagant cartridges: the original 7.62 Nagant for the 1895 (date?) Nagant revolver whose cylinder moved forward into lockup, the 7.62 Nagant Short for the TOZ 49, and the 7.62 Nagant Long for the TOZ 36? Is this correct? Do the cylinders of the TOZ 49 and 36 move forward at lockup like the old Nagant revolver's cylinder does? Are the 7.62 Nagant Short and Long cartridge bottle neck cases, like the old 7.62 Nagant? At this point, I'm mostly just curious.

These questions were asked some time back. Any help Leon ?

"THREE different 7.62 Nagant cartridges"
Correct

"Do the cylinders of the TOZ 49 and 36 move forward at lockup"
Yes they do...this is what contributes to their fine accuracy. There is no cylinder gap and the bullet does not need to jump from the cylinder into the forcing cone- i.e. the front of the case is inserted into the barrel.

"Are the 7.62 Nagant Short and Long cartridge bottle neck cases, like the old 7.62 Nagant"
No they don't. For the 7.62 Nagant Long Toz 36 round, the projectile is seated about 13mm deep, but the rim of the case is just crimped enough to fit into the barrel mouth. For the 7.62 Nagant Short Toz49 round, the projectile is seated flush with the rim - similar to the .32 S&W L wad cutter round.

I was going to stay out of this one.....too many experts and I believe the .38
is more accurate than the .32 ( the .32 has problems).

The TOZ problem is availability of cases, very hard to find in the past.

Short cartridge for TOZ-49
7,62x26 mm R
7,62x26,2 mm R
.32 Nagant corto

Long cartridge for TOZ-36
7,62x38 mm R
7,62x38,7 mm R
.32 Nagant

Now that you have entered the discussion David, could you elaborate on the problems with .32 that you have experienced.

Have a look at the SAAMI spec for the .32 sw long, one of the main
problems is bullet diameter, .315 +0.00 -0.006.
So max .315" and min .309".... hummm, what sizes are the dies ?
Second problem is the thin case wall thickness. Case release neck tension is
a major cause of the .32 flyer.

Leon wrote:
"Are the 7.62 Nagant Short and Long cartridge bottle neck cases, like the old 7.62 Nagant"
No they don't. For the 7.62 Nagant Long Toz 36 round, the projectile is seated about 13mm deep, but the rim of the case is just crimped enough to fit into the barrel mouth. For the 7.62 Nagant Short Toz49 round, the projectile is seated flush with the rim - similar to the .32 S&W L wad cutter round.

Looks like reloading is the only way to go?

Have a look at the SAAMI spec for the .32 sw long, one of the main
problems is bullet diameter, .315 +0.00 -0.006.
So max .315" and min .309".... hummm, what sizes are the dies ?
Second problem is the thin case wall thickness. Case release neck tension is
a major cause of the .32 flyer.

I followed David's good advice and diamond lapped ( +.004" ) my FLRD to better suit the .314 projectiles I use.
This was followed by using Starline brass which has a slightly thicker wall and the bullet seating process is definitely more consistent, providing a more uniform seating pressure and case neck tension.
These initial modifications may be an inconvenience to shooters however no further alteration is needed for future loading.
I have been lucky over 35+ years of shooting .32s&wl by the fact that I have not been aware of "flyers" with the exception or the time I used Teflon coated 98 grn hbwc's and a failed attempt to use taper crimping. One theory proposed is that the Teflon coated projectiles were too slippery and this affected neck tension and exaggerated other loading deficiencies.
From my personal experience I am a believer that the .32 round can produce great results, however starting with all the squares ticked is essential.
Something I have noticed is that accuracy has always been better when I used a 6" barrel ( such as in the Manurhin ) as opposed to a shorter barrel as in the GSP or SP20. Make of this whatever you wish.

SamEEE wrote:

Leon wrote:You will have to google, keep on googling and then import one yourself. One of mine came from Switzerland, the other from the Czech Republic and the remaining two I purchased in Australia.

Do you have any pictures of that NIB Toz 49? I notice that a lot of impressive centrefire scores in Australia are shot with Revolvers.

Here we are NIB Toz 49 -


The one I sold yesterday -


Business end of a Toz 49 cylinder with a loaded round -




Some of my Toz 49s and a Toz 36 at the top - ( the bottom 2 have gone to new homes and I have an early manufacture Vostok made Toz 49 which does not feature in the picture -



L-R - Original 1895 Nagant round, a 7.62 Nagant Short and a .32 S&W L -




Another view of a Toz 49 - ( this one has since been cerakoted and looks fantastic )



Beaming Russian Centrefire World Record holder ( Mikhail Nestruev 594/600 ) - set with 40 year old Toz 49 -


2012 CISM Championships - ( credit to Igor ( Ruig ) from his toz35blogspot blog -
http://toz35.blogspot.com.au/2012/12/ci ... istol.html

David M wrote:Case release neck tension is
a major cause of the .32 flyer.

When I first started reloading .32 I was getting fliers; then I threw away the taper crimp die that everyone was advising using and went with the (reasonably heavy) roll crimp that the manufacturers were using.

Result, no more flyers.

Great collection Leon....if you see a green tinge on the page its a little envy seeping through.
Thanks for sharing


The 7.62 short looks similar in length to the .32 H&R magnum.

Roll crimp into a crimp groove of a cast projectile is an easy fix, except
they will only fit into a Revolver, too long for the Auto's.
For Auto's the modified Lee factory crimp is good, part taper, part roll.

David M wrote:Roll crimp into a crimp groove of a cast projectile is an easy fix, except
they will only fit into a Revolver, too long for the Auto's.

I roll crimped at the top of a flush Lapua or Geco HBWC.

Roll crimp into a crimp groove of a cast projectile is an easy fix, except
they will only fit into a Revolver, too long for the Auto's.
For Auto's the modified Lee factory crimp is good, part taper, part roll.

Could you be a bit more explicit regarding the "Lee factory crimp" part David ?

deadeyedick wrote:

Roll crimp into a crimp groove of a cast projectile is an easy fix, except
they will only fit into a Revolver, too long for the Auto's.
For Auto's the modified Lee factory crimp is good, part taper, part roll.

Could you be a bit more explicit regarding the "Lee factory crimp" part David ? Also is this something available over the counter or are modifications needed to a standard crimping die. A bit more info will be appreciated.

Brilliant bit of gear! http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/ ... crimp-die/

Im a bit further now with my seeking for a new weapon. I tried a GSP Expert .22; that trigger realy is not my style. So the GSP drops of my list. I also reconsiderd the .32 caliber. Here in The Netherlands there are not much .32 shooters. Most "big bore"shooters are using the 9mm / .40 /.45 calibers. So i canceled my .32 wishlist. But in the shop i hold a MG2. And i realy liked how it felt and how the trigger feels. So i think im gona buy myself a new MG2 for christmas.

Spencer wrote:

deadeyedick wrote:

Roll crimp into a crimp groove of a cast projectile is an easy fix, except
they will only fit into a Revolver, too long for the Auto's.
For Auto's the modified Lee factory crimp is good, part taper, part roll.

Could you be a bit more explicit regarding the "Lee factory crimp" part David ? Also is this something available over the counter or are modifications needed to a standard crimping die. A bit more info will be appreciated.

Brilliant bit of gear! http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/ ... crimp-die/

Hmmm - I've got a handful of original Russian factory loaded Toz 49 7.62 Nagant Short rounds. I'll have a close look at them and see how they are crimped. Can't be that bad if they're responsible for setting the world CF and CISM records.

What about the Redding profile crimp dies? Is this another form of crimp again?

CamelNL wrote:Im a bit further now with my seeking for a new weapon. I tried a GSP Expert .22; that trigger realy is not my style. So the GSP drops of my list. I also reconsiderd the .32 caliber. Here in The Netherlands there are not much .32 shooters. Most "big bore"shooters are using the 9mm / .40 /.45 calibers. So i canceled my .32 wishlist. But in the shop i hold a MG2. And i realy liked how it felt and how the trigger feels. So i think im gona buy myself a new MG2 for christmas.

I absolutely love my MG2E RF. MatchGuns is like a Lamborghini...there is something special about the brand. I consider it more akin to an art than a sport equipment.

The only reason why people shoot .32 is to compete in CFP. By narrowing the caliber between 32 and 38, it really limits a lot of more popular choices. The sport would be better served if there is no limit concerning CFP, as long as the round is a center-fire, its caliber does not matter. So one can compete with .22 hornet, or .45ACP

If you look at the early history of the Olympic competition, there is no caliber restriction, especially in RFP.

conradin wrote: I absolutely love my MG2E RF. MatchGuns is like a Lamborghini...there is something special about the brand. I consider it more akin to an art than a sport equipment.

Hehe, you know a Lamborghini only wants to go fast forward? :P What is CFP ? And another question what makes the TOZ revolvers so popular?

conradin wrote:...If you look at the early history of the Olympic competition, there is no caliber restriction, especially in RFP.

Oh yes there was!
In an era when the .44 Russian centre-fire calibre was de rigueur for target pistols, all the Olympic pistol event rules somewhat loosely specified revolvers of the ‘usual calibre, max 12 mm’; two USA shooters were disqualified before firing a shot for turning up with .22s.

Re Toz Revolvers

A Toz 36 would need more than a new cylinder to shoot 32SWL, the barrel would need to be moved back so the front of the cartridge enters the rear of the barrel as the cylinder cams forward - otherwise there is minimal lockup to speak of.

Dies - For 7.62x26 - The Toz 49 cartridge - I use Dillon .32SWL dies for everything but sizing, for that I have a Simplex steel die and use lanolin to lube the cases according to the Russian lore.
Supposedly .30 carbine dies can be used for the longer cartridge.

I don't know where the idea that .32 always has a flier comes from. In my last round of testing, 120 rounds, the largest group at 25m was 52mm outside to outside, 90% of the shots would have scored X's. If a flier is within the ten and barely touching the line that's good enough for me.

JamesH wrote:... If a flier is within the ten and barely touching the line that's good enough for me.

If only.
Arguably our (AUS) most experienced shooter/reloader is David Moore, and he reports flyers with .32SWL.