TargetTalk

"Mr. Hand, meet Ms. Grip! Hug 'er tight, feel every inch of her body, but don't smother her!"

Try my suggestions, and good luck! Love to hear your range report 2 weeks later! :-)[/quote]

It take just 2 dayed to slove my problem :)..
What i did...
1- 1 clike to the right.
2- removed littel of wood under the first part of my finger
3- closed the space of my foot.
That what i got ... But more of 8's.


I don't like 8's any more :( Bill !!

Hi fellas,

Here's a re-write (or addendum, if you will :p) of my last post.

I'll leave my last post up and unedited so you can pick and choose what makes sense and useful to you, and what's not. :-)

Please bear in mind that I'm not much of a writer. I'm trying though. So please forgive me if I falter to some extent.

But I am very much a student of this phenomenon we call bullseye/ISSF pistol shooting and could no longer contain myself. I need to speak. And fun I am having! This game brings out the scientist in me. lol!

Here goes....

Sha3banov,

I believe I understand the underlying causes of your bad shots, according to your target.

It's your changing grip pressure, made worse with your fingertips, and "chicken finger" and not being able to isolate your trigger movement without moving the other 3 fingers gripping the gun.

Your group shows you have a solid 9.5 to 9.8 ring hold, and more than 1/2 of the time executed good trigger break. But the shots that went up right and low left, it's caused by uneven, changing grip tension during the shot release process. Your "bad" movement isn't much, it's actually so little that it's hard to detect visually through the aiming process, esp. recoil masking it. It's even harder to notice when shooting Olympic AP because it's hard to detect slight misalignment with iron sights. But, the "flicked" shot (bad movement) IS there, it's just that it happens so fast that you didn't see it. :-)

***Food for thought guys and gals....here's something for y'all to contemplate on: When you fire enough of "good" shots with AP, your subconscious will most likely "felt" it through your hand and trigger finger. Even though you didn't "see" what appear to be a good shot, you DEFINITELY "felt" it through your hand. And boy did it felt good! lol! Reverse is also true, when you swear you saw a perfect release with your iron sights, but the shot was "NOT" there. But your hand holding the gun firing the shot "knew" you never had that shot. lol***



Try this experiment to understand what I'm getting at:

With your gun in hand and on aim, tighten your grip. Noticed if you apply more pressure with the fingertips of the 3 fingers gripping the gun stock, you will see your wrist moves gun to low left. Release it a little, you will see wrist moves gun up and right.

Regarding the bad shots, your grip on gun is tensed and not neutral as you moved the trigger.

On the shots that were good, you were neutral with your grip and trigger finger movement was independent and isolated.

I think you have problem I call trigger freeze ("chicken" finger), because of your over-powering desire to break another good shot right after last good one, and you became tense and anxious. So for your next shot you unknowingly tighten your 3 fingers gripping the gun instead of moving just the trigger finger only. These shots tend to end up low and left. On the shots that went up high and right, you over-tightend the grip with your fingertips and relaxed it at the moment the gun fires, causing it to flip up and right. Because it's not natural for us humans to move only the trigger finger alone without moving the other three that's gripping the gun, when you tense up you will also tend to move the 3 gripping fingers while trying to move the trigger finger alone. Especially if you even so slightly tighten the middle finger, which is just below the trigger finger, this will move gun more and make it worse.

So what to do to correct it?

I would suggest those generic hand grip strengthening device that are sold everywhere. They are "V" shaped coiled springs with soft gripping handles on each end. I would start with medium. Put it in between the meaty part of the hand below the thumb and 2nd pad of the 3 gripping fingers, then compress. Use 2nd pad of the gripping fingers ONLY to compress it straight back toward the meaty part, DO NOT curl the fingertips! Extend your arm like you're going to shoot. Now, move the trigger finger like you are firing a shot, moving straight back, release, then again, in smooth and careful movement, while the entire time pay mental focus NOT to change gripping pressure on the other 3 fingers compressing the grip device. PAY EVEN MORE ATTENTION TO MIDDLE FINGER, be more vigilant in keeping this little rascal from moving! This process I suggest you try not to do for more than 20 seconds straight, but do repeat the steps for about maybe 5 minutes every night. Don't do too much of this all at once because cramped hand and forearm won't do you any good the next time you're out at the range. The purpose here is to build up tactile feel for proper constant grip while moving the trigger independently. Don't forget to do this with your eyes closed so you can feel the whole process through your hand without visual distractions, because our other senses are heightened when we shut off one.

Also do the other exercise with your pistol I mentioned in earlier thread, with eyes closed of course, after you do the one above. And I forgot to mention dry-firing the gun while doing this, so do it. :-) All of this preferable before bedtime, so you can ingrain this into your subconscious. It's advisable to have your gun grip "roughed up" with some kind of texturing (grip tape, stippling, sharp checking, etc.) so your hand can FEEL it for better results.

HTH and Good shooting!

P.S. One more thing I forgot to mention. An improper fitting grip can also facilitate the problems you have.

If you must, carve and bondo away! That's why they're made of wood. :-)

Have a grip shaped in such a way NOT to feel "TOO" comfortable to the point your hand "falls asleep" on it. The goal is to make a grip feel like your hand is a machine vise clamping on the front and back of the grip only. You should feel the imprint of the grip on the meaty flesh of your hand and the 2nd pad of your gripping fingers. Don't shape it in such that the fingertips are the one that do the gripping!

Best Regards,
Bill

sha3banov wrote:"Mr. Hand, meet Ms. Grip! Hug 'er tight, feel every inch of her body, but don't smother her!"

Try my suggestions, and good luck! Love to hear your range report 2 weeks later! :-)

It take just 2 dayed to slove my problem :)..
What i did...
1- 1 clike to the right.
2- removed littel of wood under the first part of my finger
3- closed the space of my foot.
That what i got ... But more of 8's.


I don't like 8's any more :( Bill !![/quote]

Haha neither do I !! :-)

It's actually a better group than the one before. :-) It's more concentric, than compared to what you had before....The target is practically saying to you: "Good job son, your trigger release is excellent and you're trusting your hold!" lol

The way I see it, the few 8's you have here is not as much as trigger release problem but most likely your up/down oscillation in your hold. Could be your stance too...

I believe we can all agree that the hardest part of consistent shooting lies in the trigger manipulation and release, and the proper execution of it.

I'm going to wager that this is the only 1st 60 shots you fired since you changed your technique.

It's waaayyyy too early to judge. Don't give your final verdict yet.....

Give it a few more weeks, and see what happens....Don't let one session dictate your overall performance.

Be patient, my friend, take it one step at a time. :-)

You're getting there.....not blindly, blasting away not knowing the hell is going on, but learning more about yourself along the way.

-Bill

P.S. check your pinky finger the next time you're out on the range. If you ever tighten them or using it to grip gun more you'll get those high and low 8's. Hey, maybe that part of the grip is too raised, which may explain you putting more pressure there than the part of the grip where your 2 other gripping fingers are. This creates a pressure "imbalance" and you'll "pull" gun down more when pressure is applied or gun goes up when you let loose on that pinky.

But don't change anything yet....shoot it same way for a while... and see what happens.

:-)

Ed Hall wrote:Although "shooting" on the move sounds like trying to pick off the bull, I don't believe that is what was meant, and starting the trigger while on the move to the center is not a bad idea. In fact, it's better to have the shot go off when you reach center, than to reach center, start the shot and have it fire when you move off center. This is not trying to hit center as you swing through. This is starting the trigger and then settling into your hover within your aiming area.

Readers might be interested in my "2006 New Year's Training Exercise."

Ed,

You nailed it! Thanks for coming to my rescue. :-)

Such is the technique that I use to better results overall - on both "steady as a rock" days as well as "2 hours night sleep graveyard-shift/coffee-shaky" days, than the typical "settle in aiming area, let it wander a bit, then start pressing" method.

I noticed the side-to-side oscillation in my hold is much less, or even non-existent, as the arm/gun is moving on its way down.

There's something about your arms in straight line motion that the horizontal movement is somehow canceled out. If you just throw your arm out there trying to steady it the harder you try the more oscillation you get.

With this technique, when done right - paired with perfect trigger timing, the bullet holes literally pile up on top of the other. I have fired 8-9 shot free pistol groups that can be covered with a dime. Wish I can do that as often as I like. Wish I can train as much as I like to (excuses, excuses....). HA!

I favored this technique because I can't seem to hold my breath any longer than 5 sec. without feeling the ill effects of oxygen-deprivation, esp. at Colorado Springs where the air is thin....

I discovered this back in the early 90's when the Germans release a "how-to" video on Olympic Pistol technique, with English narrative. I believe it was (and still is??) the preferred technique of Soviet/Eastern Bloc shooters specializing in FP/AP.

I believe they call it the "double breathing" technique.


Technique goes like this:

First breath inhale/raise gun, exhale/lower gun.....

Stop gun movement as 1st breathing cycle comes to end....by now the gun should be, say 6" on top of the bull.

Then take a second breath...inhale/move gun slightly up, not moving the arm in relation to torso, but by rib cage expansion alone...

exhale/come down to the proper aiming area below bull (rib cage contracting/lowering the arm) at same time begin trigger movement.

shot should fire at end of 2nd breathing cycle as the gun settles in aiming area. Let subconscious dictate trigger timing, straight back unchanging pressure. The sights aren't there in the aiming area long enough for it to oscillate much before shot breaks.

If shot not fired at end of 2nd exhale, then put gun down, start whole process again.....

OR....

Triple breathing (my technique) - repeating 2nd breathing cycle aiming/firing process, keeping the gun raised....
**I do this because it takes me longer to steady myself.....**

If I can't get shot off by 3rd breath, I abort.

During the firing process no breaths are held in. Shots are fired during 2nd or 3rd exhale cycle, usually at the end.

There's a mild euphoria when exhale begins.....tension tends to melt away, and your subconscious does the shooting for you.

Try it, may work for you. :-)

-Bill

Guys, for "shooting on the move" i meant shooting, as Zanardi says, as soon as exhaling terminates, which means according to his nice decription, at the moment the torso stops moving. Shooting as soon as you stop is not exactly what one often sees at int. competions when people keep aiming for interminable seconds before releasing.

I was naming it " on the move" because it seems to me very difficoult to get the exact moment. I have, however, the same experience which Zanardi describes. If I manage to do that, its simply a single, beutiful 4.5mm hole!

I'm finding this thread intriguing and a mine of information, what with the very descriptive contributions and links. As a teenager I was passionate about pistol shooting and shot most nights of the week and at weekends. When I went away to university all that stopped and was left on hold for nearly 40 years until I came back to shooting a few years ago.

I've acquired quite a few pistols and I'm currently using an LP10, LP50 compact and Pardini K22 in competitions. I'm still trying to settle into a preferred stance and style with these and on reflection much of what I've read above has drifted in and out of my mind over the last 18 months, or so. I've currently moved away from a completely perpendicular stance to somewhere around 165 degrees. Ed Hall's comments have been helpful here. I've also been trying the double and triple breathing that Bill has outlined. His comments on grip and trigger control also overlap with my experience.

Fascinating sport and hobby.

sha3banov, what software did you use for the target images please?

Thanks,

Mick

I very much agree with micken.
A very interesting thread.

When I am not shooting on computer system I use TargetScan. I can only recommend it.

BILL

1st ,, thanks alot for your kind ... you are respect man ...
2nd .. i'll try the "double breathing" technique. and we will see :) .
3rd .. can you please show me any photo about that ( generic hand grip strengthening device ) ????
best regards ,,
sha3banov

micken wrote:
sha3banov, what software did you use for the target images please?

Thanks,

Mick

i use android app (( MyShots )) and but shot by shot on it from paper targets ..
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nl.myshots
very nice APP .. try it ..

sha3banov wrote: i use android app (( MyShots )) and but shot by shot on it from paper targets ..
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... nl.myshots
very nice APP .. try it ..

Thanks for that. Interestingly I'm just about to move across to an iPhone after many years with a highly modded Android phone. There's a MEC Shot App that I'm interested in that pushed the decision a bit. I'll try the MyShots app out though.

Cheers,

Mick

hi all my friends... i changed my shooting way by new technique as Bill advice me for days 3-7/12/2014 and that what i got ... 50 shot.



i found the shooting group little for left side so i made little modification of my pistol grip in the same place like last time and that what i got ... 40 shot.