TargetTalk

I shoot my 60 shots at lunch time (without any sighters) in around 45 minutes. I will try to take in and try all of your suggestions and let you know how I get on. Thanks again.

I'm far from perfect at keeping calm, but I've improved significantly. I really struggle with anticipation; an emotional response that occurs just as the shot is about to break and creates flyers. Now, I understand that such emotions come from the unconscious mind, which is much more primitive and emotional, and much, much faster than our conscious mind. For a long time I thought that as a result I would not be able to control that problem with my shooting directly or consciously, but would have to reduce it over time by becoming good enough that my unconscious mind would learn not to anticipate, through experience.

I was wrong. You can learn to control your emotions consciously and directly.

The most important thing was for me to actually realize that the preceding statement is true. I paid attention to my emotional state during good shots and during the flyers, and used my conscious mind to make myself only break the shot when I was in the right emotional state, and then to maintain that state more or less at will. As a result, my group size has decreased significantly and what I call a "flyer" now is what would have been an okay shot before.

If I may propose an alternative for consideration that might help. Instead of trying to shoot X number of shots in Y amount of time, why not try training to shoot a single shot? The point is that if "nerves", "excitement" or "arousal" is the issue, then we may need to reduce part of what is causing that condition and create a different condition where a 10 is outcome.

In other words, quit trying to shot X number shots when training, and try training to shoot one (1) perfect 10. Change the training to focus on only one part of shot process each day, then take some other days to just shoot and see how it all comes together. Keep a journal based on shots and what went well, not on scores at this point for training. The biggest part of shooting good shots is recognizing what a good shot looks like in process. And not shooting the shots that are not going to be good shots.

I generally find that focusing on the shoot process will eventually reduce the awareness of "nerves", "arousal", "over excitement" or whatever we may call our particular condition.

Just some thoughts.

Cecil

Well I tried some of your suggestions today. I shot 20 sighters in 15 minutes, then 60 shots in 90 minutes, also I regulated my breathing a lot more than I normally do. It worked in the sense that I did feel much more relaxed, and my shooting did feel much more controlled. It didn't improve my score any though. I shot around my average of around 80 per 10 shots. Still, early days, it was only one session, so not definitive. I'll keep on trying and see how it goes. In earlier experimentation, I found that 10 deep slow breaths between each shot seemed to work quite well for me, any more than that gave no real improvement, and less I got worse. Still, it's a journey that I'm thoroughly enjoying, and learning more all the time. Thanks again for all your help.

Wynne G Oldman wrote:Well I tried some of your suggestions today. I shot 20 sighters in 15 minutes, then 60 shots in 90 minutes, also I regulated my breathing a lot more than I normally do. It worked in the sense that I did feel much more relaxed, and my shooting did feel much more controlled. It didn't improve my score any though. I shot around my average of around 80 per 10 shots. Still, early days, it was only one session, so not definitive. I'll keep on trying and see how it goes. In earlier experimentation, I found that 10 deep slow breaths between each shot seemed to work quite well for me, any more than that gave no real improvement, and less I got worse. Still, it's a journey that I'm thoroughly enjoying, and learning more all the time. Thanks again for all your help.

First of all Dont take what Im going to say as a bad thing.

I think you are doing it all wrong. If you are spending that amount of time training and are averaging 480 after a year you either have Parkinsons or you are doing something majorly wrong.

Stop trying to shoot a score and start trying to shoot a good shot. you dont need to shoot any particular amount of shots in 45 minutes unless you are specifically trying to train match timings after you have trained all the other basics.

It seems to me like you need to start dry firing. For the first 12 months I spent 20 minutes a day training. I spent 5 minutes warming up and then I dry fired for 15 mins a day 5 days a week. then I shot air pistol on the weekend. this got me to shooting around 570 at home and and a pb in my first year of 560 in comp.

I also think you are worrying about the mental side of it way to much at this point. You need to learn to physically shoot before it is really a big issue. the mental side of it doesnt really make you shoot 7s all over the shop it causes you to shoot 9s when you should be shooting 10s, or causes you to shoot an 8 when you have been shooting lots of 10s.

Learn to embrace the fact that you get excited and it puts you under pressure while in training. I wish I could convince my brain that I really was under pressure while training because you will rarely be calm when shooting in an event, especially a final where you could be eliminated if you shoot a bad shot. I have to do physical activity to replicate this, like go for a run and then shoot 10 shots then go for another run.

You can shoot quiet well with an elevated heart rate while under pressure. You just have to realise it (very easy to tell your self but very hard to really convince your self of the fact.) I shot a 99 in comp with a hear rate monitor on and me heart rate was at 198, only 5 beats off my max. I was shaking to the shit house but still holding the 10 ring although only just.

If I had 45 mins at lunch to shoot I would be dry firing for the first 30 and then doing 15 mins of live fire at the end. I would be working on one particular thing for the entire session

Muffo wrote:

Wynne G Oldman wrote:Well I tried some of your suggestions today. I shot 20 sighters in 15 minutes, then 60 shots in 90 minutes, also I regulated my breathing a lot more than I normally do. It worked in the sense that I did feel much more relaxed, and my shooting did feel much more controlled. It didn't improve my score any though. I shot around my average of around 80 per 10 shots. Still, early days, it was only one session, so not definitive. I'll keep on trying and see how it goes. In earlier experimentation, I found that 10 deep slow breaths between each shot seemed to work quite well for me, any more than that gave no real improvement, and less I got worse. Still, it's a journey that I'm thoroughly enjoying, and learning more all the time. Thanks again for all your help.

First of all Dont take what Im going to say as a bad thing.

I think you are doing it all wrong. If you are spending that amount of time training and are averaging 480 after a year you either have Parkinsons or you are doing something majorly wrong.

Stop trying to shoot a score and start trying to shoot a good shot. you dont need to shoot any particular amount of shots in 45 minutes unless you are specifically trying to train match timings after you have trained all the other basics.

It seems to me like you need to start dry firing. For the first 12 months I spent 20 minutes a day training. I spent 5 minutes warming up and then I dry fired for 15 mins a day 5 days a week. then I shot air pistol on the weekend. this got me to shooting around 570 at home and and a pb in my first year of 560 in comp.

I also think you are worrying about the mental side of it way to much at this point. You need to learn to physically shoot before it is really a big issue. the mental side of it doesnt really make you shoot 7s all over the shop it causes you to shoot 9s when you should be shooting 10s, or causes you to shoot an 8 when you have been shooting lots of 10s.

Learn to embrace the fact that you get excited and it puts you under pressure while in training. I wish I could convince my brain that I really was under pressure while training because you will rarely be calm when shooting in an event, especially a final where you could be eliminated if you shoot a bad shot. I have to do physical activity to replicate this, like go for a run and then shoot 10 shots then go for another run.

You can shoot quiet well with an elevated heart rate while under pressure. You just have to realise it (very easy to tell your self but very hard to really convince your self of the fact.) I shot a 99 in comp with a hear rate monitor on and me heart rate was at 198, only 5 beats off my max. I was shaking to the shit house but still holding the 10 ring although only just.

If I had 45 mins at lunch to shoot I would be dry firing for the first 30 and then doing 15 mins of live fire at the end. I would be working on one particular thing for the entire session

Thanks for your advice Muffo. Whilst my MP-46M can be dry fired, it doesn't feel anything like live firing, that's mainly why I live fire all the time. Is dry firing really any better than live firing during practise?

Wynne G Oldman wrote:Is dry firing really any better than live firing during practise?

It's essential!
It doesn't replace live fire, it improves it.

The lack of recoil has one very important feature, it lets you see what happens to your front sight when you press the trigger.
You should have no movement whatsoever when you press the trigger. The sights must remain as aligned as you possibly can.

That's the key to a good shot. Sights aligned and a trigger release that doesn't disturbs that alignement.

Hope this helps

Is dry fire useful? Depends on what you're training for.
Putting lead downrange doesn't - on it's own - make you a better shooter. As others have said, it's better to go and put down twenty focussed shots and make them the best shots you can, than to smash out 60 shots as quick as possible just so you've got a score. It's counter-intuitive but your score has no real bearing on your performance. You can wave a pistol in the general direction of your target and get 60 tens (unlikely but it could happen). Does that make you a world class shooter? No. I'm more interested in the person who shoots a 540 with 60 9.9s, because they're grouping and doing something consistently, and it's probably not a whole leap to getting some of those shots in the 10 ring.

Rushing a match daily is not really going to help your shooting or tell you a lot about your improvement (or otherwise!).

Practising is repetition and reinforcement of your training. If you're not reinforcing your training then you're probably reinforcing bad habits!

Every time you shoot there should be some purpose to it. Either you're training some aspect of your stance/trigger control/shot release/breathing, or you're practicing and reinforcing what you've trained.
If you're training to improve say, trigger squeeze and shot release then dry fire is as good as live - the pistol pretty much shouldn't move as you release the shot. If the point of aim moves, then that's you doing it wrong. As rmca says, with live fire the (small) amount of recoil can mask the fact that you yourself are pulling the shot through some technical/triggering error.


Training doesn't just involve shooting matches. For instance, I've just spent an entire weekend playing "the card game". You draw a card from a deck and endeavour to shoot that number of consecutive tens (2-10 are obvious, assign your own arbitrary values to Jack/Queen/King/Ace - 11/12/15/20 or whatever you like). When you've achieved that you break position and go draw another card.

This does two things:
- First it introduces pressure - if you've drawn a 9 and shot 8 tens, then the pressure on you to not blow your run on the final shot and have to start again is similar to you being bad and counting your shots in a match (and realising that it's all going rather well and getting excited, or realising you've shot 9 tens and you could be on for a 100 string). It forces you to overcome your results-driven excitement and focus on process and shot release.*
- Secondly, you're intending to break position, go get another card, get back in position and shoot a ten as your first shot. This is arguably more involved for rifle shooters like me than for pistol shooters on account of our extra kit, but if in a match you have say, a cross shot, or some incident that breaks your routine but which does not entitle you to fresh sighters, then this is great training for breaking and rebuilding your shooting position/stance many times over and picking up where you left off (as opposed to a scenario such as moving lanes after a target failure where you would get extra sighters).

You don't get a score from this exercise. Which is fine, because it's training a certain part of your shooting. It's process-driven, not results driven. Any score is irrelevant to the factors you are training. It's a distraction. You might do a training match as part of your training regime, in which you see the results of your training (and ensure that you're shooting at a steady pace, within the time limits, that you have the physical stamina for the full match length, etc), but that training match has it's own purpose - to assess the results of your training thus far, and to flag up any issues such as stamina - in which case you may well wish to shoot some back-to-back matches, 120 shots in one go and build stamina, match readiness, etc. But if you're doing that, then it's for a specific reason, to address a specific weakness in your preparation.

Incidentally, we had a training match on Sunday afternoon after a day and a half of the card game and shot a new PB, because I was still totally focussed on process from the weekend's training and not what score I wanted to shoot in the match. I was knackered and wasn't really up for the match, just intended to treat it as an extension of the training and make sure my process was spot on. It worked :D



*Obviously in a match or normal circumstances you shouldn't be counting your tens and going "Ooh, if I shoot another two tens I'll have a 'ton", or "Oooh, if I do another two strings like that I'll finish over 530". However, even if you're being mentally disciplined and not doing the mental maths, you may well be aware that you haven't shot an 8/9 in a while or that it all seems to be going quite well and you could be on for a good score. This sort of exercise is good for forcing you to overcome that distraction and focus back on the process of releasing the next shot. If you're daydreaming about the score you might shoot then you're not focussing on where you're pointing the sights or delivering a nice crisp trigger release.

As above. It isnt ment to feel the same. Even the slightest movement from recoil masks what you are doing wrong. It also distracts you from what is important. What is happening on the target is completely iralivant. Pardon my poor spelling. What happens at the target is purely a result of what your front sight did.
I beleive the last rapid fire world champion said he dry fires 60 shot to every live fire shot and rapid fire is a lot further away from dry fire than air pistol is.

You can shoot dry fire matches and use a scoring system based on what your front sight does if you want to make it more interesting and it also adds a mental ellement

Great post form Hemmers. That's spot on except this part...

Hemmers wrote:but which does not entitle you to fresh sighters (like moving lanes after a target failure would)

6.10.9.1 When ALL Targets on a Range Fail

c) After the failure is rectified and the full range is in operation,
an additional five (5) minutes will be added to the
competition time remaining. The time for recommencing is to
be announced over the loudspeaker system at least five (5)
minutes beforehand. Athletes must be allowed to resume
their position in the five (5) minutes before the competition
restarts. Unlimited sighting shots must be allowed during the
remaining shooting time, but only before competition shots
are resumed.

6.10.9.2 When a SINGLE Target Fails

a) If the EST cannot be repaired within five (5) minutes, the
athlete must be moved to a reserve position;
b) When he is ready to shoot, an additional five (5) minutes
will be added to the competition time remaining; and
c) He will be permitted unlimited sighting shots before he starts
the remaining competition shots.

Thanks, although I think you possibly misunderstood my intention with that bit. That was pretty much what I meant. With a cross-shot you will be disrupted whilst the RO establishes who shot what onto where, and you just have to pick up where you left off. Unlike a lane-move where you would get fresh sighters. Edited it anyway to avoid any confusion.

My bad!
I misunderstood what you wrote the first time.
My apologies.

I've been taking in all the replies to my request for ideas, and I'm finding them very helpful, especially "you're doing it all wrong" from Muffo. Whilst at first this was a bit of a dent to my ego, I think he's right. I should be shooting much better than I am after the period of time that I've been shooting. I've decided to go back to basics and start from the very beginning, reading all the theory, concentrating on all the basic stuff and practising dry firing. Thanks again for all your help folks.

Wynne G Oldman wrote:I've been taking in all the replies to my request for ideas, and I'm finding them very helpful, especially "you're doing it all wrong" from Muffo. Whilst at first this was a bit of a dent to my ego, I think he's right. I should be shooting much better than I am after the period of time that I've been shooting. I've decided to go back to basics and start from the very beginning, reading all the theory, concentrating on all the basic stuff and practising dry firing. Thanks again for all your help folks.

and...
...what does your coach advise?

YOU DO HAVE A COACH?

IF NOT, WHY NOT?

Spencer wrote:

Wynne G Oldman wrote:I've been taking in all the replies to my request for ideas, and I'm finding them very helpful, especially "you're doing it all wrong" from Muffo. Whilst at first this was a bit of a dent to my ego, I think he's right. I should be shooting much better than I am after the period of time that I've been shooting. I've decided to go back to basics and start from the very beginning, reading all the theory, concentrating on all the basic stuff and practising dry firing. Thanks again for all your help folks.

and...
...what does your coach advise?

YOU DO HAVE A COACH?

IF NOT, WHY NOT?

Shooting is just a very enjoyable hobby for me. You guys are my coach. ;)

Wynne G Oldman wrote:I've been taking in all the replies to my request for ideas, and I'm finding them very helpful, especially "you're doing it all wrong" from Muffo. Whilst at first this was a bit of a dent to my ego, I think he's right. I should be shooting much better than I am after the period of time that I've been shooting. I've decided to go back to basics and start from the very beginning, reading all the theory, concentrating on all the basic stuff and practising dry firing. Thanks again for all your help folks.

Its not necessarily a bad thing. I think some one who has to work hard for it is more likely to succeed. Like I said I shot very reasonable score within a year of shooting. Before I fired a shot I had listened to all the right ways of doing it for most of my child hood and started shooting under the instruction of a good coach. I found it so dam easy to get into a grade. a months training would see my average score climb by 10 points. then all of a sudden Id spend months training to maybe pick up a single point. then I found another shooting sport that I walked into right at the top level without much training so ISSF has struggled because of it. I think Im only just getting the drive back to do enough training

Wynne G Oldman wrote:I've been taking in all the replies to my request for ideas, and I'm finding them very helpful, especially "you're doing it all wrong" from Muffo. Whilst at first this was a bit of a dent to my ego, I think he's right. I should be shooting much better than I am after the period of time that I've been shooting. I've decided to go back to basics and start from the very beginning, reading all the theory, concentrating on all the basic stuff and practising dry firing. Thanks again for all your help folks.

As Muffo has gone on to say, "you're doing it all wrong" is a bit harsh, but yes, clearly your efforts have been somewhat misdirected. Back to basics is what's needed - it's basically what I did during my weekend of playing the card game - and as I mentioned, you want to work through exercises developing your technique, and not worry too much about score - if your technique is good your score will be good, but what happens at the target is only a reflection of what happens in your hand, nothing more, nothing less.

Spencer wrote: and...
...what does your coach advise?

YOU DO HAVE A COACH?

IF NOT, WHY NOT?

Because good coaches are hard to find? I've been to clubs where I pretty much wouldn't trust anyone to touch my position, clubs where "training" consists of working around an NSRA ten-spot card and people cannot comprehend why you spend your time shooting groups because you can't get a score and apparently "don't know how well you've done", successfully missing the point in spectacular style. I travel 160miles each way to see a coach I trust.

Although at this stage I think Wynne simply needs an instructor to sort out basic matters of technique rather than a coach for longer-term development, though that will come.

Hemmers wrote:Because good coaches are hard to find? I've been to clubs where I pretty much wouldn't trust anyone to touch my position, clubs where "training" consists of working around an NSRA ten-spot card and people cannot comprehend why you spend your time shooting groups because you can't get a score and apparently "don't know how well you've done", successfully missing the point in spectacular style. I travel 160miles each way to see a coach I trust.

Although at this stage I think Wynne simply needs an instructor to sort out basic matters of technique rather than a coach for longer-term development, though that will come.

Good points, but in part you have answered your own 'misgivings'.

"160miles each way to see a coach I trust" takes about 6 hours (I have driven in UK) plus the coaching time - time much more productive than the same time spent on-range ingraining any bad techniques.

The point about instructor v coach is valid. I was using the term 'coach' in the generic sense, though implying somebody who has some coaching qualifications.
Wynne seems to be at a level where 'basic' instruction is needed rather than the advice of a High-Performance Programme coach. What is needed is face-to-face 'instruction' in the basics from a qualified coach, rather than (the all too common) risk of misunderstood/misinterpreted/misapplied book learning.

Here's a few thoughts:

1. Make sure you warm up/stretch before you shoot. I'm not talking calisthenics, but stretch out. This is especially true of your hand/arm.
2. I haven't seen anything, but are you eating before or after you shoot? Either way, you may want to look at if you're hungry (if you haven't eaten since breakfast) or if your food is affecting you (if you've eaten just before lunch). Also watch your caffeine intake (even that cup of coffee in the morning) and drink plenty of water. If your lunch starts at 11, eat something light (fruit, crackers, something small) no less than 2 hours before you shoot. Food and water can make a big difference.
3. While going to do some live fire is good, you should be spending AT LEAST twice as much time dry firing against a blank wall or simulated target, which I prefer the former. Dry fire may be "boring" or "not sexy", but it won't be when you start winning. If you're absolutely set on shooting at lunch (which you should STILL dry fire before), supplement it with dry fire time at home that night.
4. To calm down, try Diaphragmatic Breathing. Basically, breathe with your belly. In Jason Selk's book "Ten Minute Toughness", he talks about a "clearing breath", where you breathe in slowly for 6 seconds, hold for 2, then out for 7. Breathing that deeply will almost force you to use your diaphragm, which has a calming effect on the nervous system.
5. Try some visualization. Close your eyes and take that deep breath. See exactly what those sights are supposed to look like. "Feel" the trigger breaking. Then give yourself an internal nod and execute exactly that.
6. When you go to the range, shoot an odd number. You seem VERY hinged on your score. Score is an accumulation of 60 shots. A pistol can only chamber one at a time. Shoot 37. Shoot 71. Shoot one 10.9, then walk away. Your accumulation of shots doesn't mean anything until you make that one count every time.

These are just a few-odd things that I thought of while reading your post. Keep in mind that I've never watched you fire a shot. You may have ALL of the above nailed down, but we're not seeing something small and mechanical. Remember that the target is nothing more than a bullet stop with a circle on it. This is one of the few times you'll hear someone say to focus completely on yourself. You hold the answers. You just need to find them.

Good luck!

^ that is good advise except I can't see your diet and caffeine making hardly any difference untill you are shooting 570s on comp and trying to shoot 580s. I drink heaps of caffeine. I shot a practice match last week while drinking a coffee and shot 578. Last year I decided to give up drinking caffeine before service rifle nationals. I stopped 4 months before so I wouldn't suffer withdrawals and it made no difference. I actually did slightly worse across the board