TargetTalk

David Levene wrote:
I can only imagine what reaction we would get at our club competitions if we tried to disqualify a shooter when his pistol didn't lift a "piece of coat hanger and a full tin of pellets" home-made weight.

Most competition shooters have somewhat higher standards.

I can't speak for what kind of reaction you'd get at your club matches because I've never been there and I don't know who goes to your matches. But given that human beings sometimes fall prey to logical fallacies (e.g. argumentum ab auctoritate), I'd suppose that if there's an unexpected equipment fault (e.g. trigger doesn't pass control) that person would seek an external attribution.

But we know the truth is exactly what Rover says it is: 500g = 500g, no matter what it looks like, how much it cost, or whether or not it's Mickey-Mousey (I like that expression, David, thanks for adding it!).

But then there's also Dr.Lee's statement that he does care how it looks. He says it's for "precision".
The problem is that we're biased against things that don't 'look' precision, or are "mickey mouse", or "home made" even though we know 500g = 500g.
And I'm not saying I'm not biased either - I am quite sure that if I went to a match in Phoenix at Rover's club and they weighed my trigger with a taped-shut tin of pellets and a coat hanger... well, I'd think that was weird. Even knowing it's "correct" still wouldn't make it "right".

Now of course to the DQ'd shooter - if it's a shiny fancy milled piece of metal that says "500g" and "Made in Germany" on it, well, nobody is going to argue with that.
However, if that same shooter is DQ'd because of something that looks like the very clever (and apparently ISSF legal, if it's 500g) device that bummer7 made, that person might want to argue with you because there's not as much visible "auctoritate" to lend credence to the "argumentum" that the trigger is just plain too light.

So it looks like what Dr.Lee needs is probably the Gehmann in the link a few comments above.

jr wrote:

David Levene wrote:
I can only imagine what reaction we would get at our club competitions if we tried to disqualify a shooter when his pistol didn't lift a "piece of coat hanger and a full tin of pellets" home-made weight.

Most competition shooters have somewhat higher standards.

I can't speak for what kind of reaction you'd get at your club matches because I've never been there and I don't know who goes to your matches.

That is exactly my point. Without knowing the circumstances where it will be used it is wrong to say that a tin of pellets and a piece of coat hanger will be "good enough".

For information, several of our club meetings are used for selection purposes for GBR and Home Countries teams. I can only think of one top GBR pistol shooter who is not a member. At one of our two annual open meetings last month the range and EC staff included 9 qualified ISSF Pistol Judges, and that is fairly typical.

A "piece of coat hanger and a full tin of pellets"? I don't think so ;-)

jr wrote:
I can't speak for what kind of reaction you'd get at your club matches because I've never been there and I don't know who goes to your matches.

So don't!!

renzo wrote:

jr wrote:
I can't speak for what kind of reaction you'd get at your club matches because I've never been there and I don't know who goes to your matches.

So don't!!

Oops, I did!

jr mirrors my opinion exactly.

I can recall having my pistol rejected four times for trigger weight at a match until I brought the AMU armorer who had tweaked my trigger to show the judge how to do it right. You don't need fancy...you need competence.

Rover wrote:jr mirrors my opinion exactly.

jr wrote:So it looks like what Dr.Lee needs is probably the Gehmann in the link a few comments above.

See today's "Buy Sell Trade" section. It has a roller though.

If I went to a competition that was stated at running under ISSF rules, I would expect my pistol to be tested with an ISSF compliant test weight. If a coat hanger and jar of pellets was produced I don't think I would be able to contain my response.

This is a precision sport we are talking about and while I totally agree with the 500g = 500g statement, what if the homemade 500g is 'off centre' so it creates a sideways force - this may give false readings and get a shooter disqualified.

Homemade really says it all - fine for testing your own trigger at home but if you fail when you go to the comp that is your fault - the ECs decision is final - especially if you complain to much!!

The competency thing that Rover states is probably a much, much bigger issue. I have seen pistols fail twice and then someone else has done the test and the pistol has passed - a real steady hand and good technique are what is required.

A point to demonstrate this is that several shooters from my club recently entered a competition under ISSF conditions. Many of the pistols that had been set up at the club, failed at the competition. The club's test weight is a 'home made' device. When I say home made, I believe it came out of the Bentley Motor Car factory based in Crewe so perhaps at the highest end of 'home made'. But it goes to show that even a very well made, non official ISSF, weight can give problems.

I know my pistol is close to the limit having had it go through EC at the British Airgun Championships and it passed at the above competition which demonstrated the EC chap had good technique and competency - so why did so many fail?

Is it really worth the aggravation of being failed just before a comp and having to adjust your trigger that you have just trained with for the last few weeks/months.

Just my 2p (or 2c) worth

Mark

markwarren wrote: Is it really worth the aggravation of being failed just before a comp and having to adjust your trigger that you have just trained with for the last few weeks/months.

Mark

Just set up your triggers to be 20-30gr over and never have the worry about whether the person doing EQ has perfect technique or not.

One problem with weights for setting things up is you don't have a good idea of how much margin you have. I use a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge (~ $60), and set my AP triggers for ~ 530 grams. I've used the Lyman gauge to weigh an official weight, and it's within 5 grams. I can also use the gauge to check 1st stage vs 2nd stage weight, and one gadget works for all my pistols & rifles.

I used the Lyman gauge to set up over a dozen air pistols for the team I help coach, and then checked them with an official weight. I've never had a problem, and none of the ones I've set have failed equipment check at the Collegiate National Championships.

The one annoying thing is that it has a roller on it, but with care, you can get it to stay in the trigger notch on most pistols.

j-team wrote:

markwarren wrote: Is it really worth the aggravation of being failed just before a comp and having to adjust your trigger that you have just trained with for the last few weeks/months.

Mark

Just set up your triggers to be 20-30gr over and never have the worry about whether the person doing EQ has perfect technique or not.

I must concur.

I've never been able to meet a shooter who could tell HIS OWN trigger weight from 500 to 530 grams.

I bet any shooter worth his salt could tell his trigger from another - even at the same "technical" weight - from the feel and the travel (or lack of it).

But 30 grams? No way.