TargetTalk

"My scores are practically identical with a Pardini K10, K12, and my old Baikal 46m - all between 91 and 93/100, even though these pistols each shoot quite differently in several ways."

I never thought Gerard would be agreeing with me, however inadvertantly. Heh, heh, heh.

There is a difference between "frei" and "kostenlos" ;) but I say if you have the money why not get the top of the line pistol? It'll hold its value better if you want out of the sport. Not saying CO2 is crap but if you can get top of the line, I'd do it. Got my 1913/2213 for half of what it should've been.

David M wrote:LP400 trigger..... a new spring and a couple of rubs with a diamond lap and hey presto the trigger has improved greatly.
Now setup with 430g 1st stage and 80g 2nd stage and a very slight soft roll off feel.

Hi David,
I have put in the new walther replacement spring, still too heavy.
I have put in a lighter spring again but now conclude that the sear is hanging up.
I can't get lower than about 120g for my second stage.
Did you dismantle the sear and lever (or catch and discharge latch) from the gun before lapping. Did you use a dimond stick or diamond paste? If you did dismantle it, did you need a real small allen key to remove the retaining collars?

"new walther replacement spring, still too heavy"
Spring I used was a shortened Wolff 3-5 spring.

"Did you dismantle the sear and lever (or catch and discharge latch) from the gun before lapping."
Yes, slight change of sear angle (reduced)

"Did you use a dimond stick or diamond paste?"
Very Fine EasyLap and a jig.

"If you did dismantle it, did you need a real small allen key to remove the retaining collars?"
Yes, allen key is 0.89mm

The trigger can now go as low as 50g on second stage.

Perfect. Thank you very much for your help. I didn't want to have to change pistols after I had done so much work on the grip.

Great info guys.

I was just about to order the new Walther spring but using a Wolf spring sounds like an easier and cheaper option.

What was the part number for the Wolf spring.

Thanks

Spaceball

As stated the Wolff spring is a cutdown 3-5 miniature coil.
I retained the coil return spring (190) on the catch (16),
and by recutting the sear angle more force is required
on the second stage spring (148) to hold the sear.
The Wolff spring is slightly lighter in coil but longer than the origional.
The net result is a better controlled spring balance
between the two springs and a lighter force to release the
sear with less trigger collapse after the release.
The sear works well with a 50g second stage release.
Warning if you dont know what you are doing,
DON'T DO IT.

Trigger is much better now. I will go back to my middle strength spring to get a bit more resistance. I'll send a photo sometime of my second stage spring adjustment where you don't need the allen key.

Thanks David.
I read your post as you cut 3-5 coils off a Wolff spring.
Now I understand that that was the part number.

I had a quick play tonight by removing spring 191 and adjusting the second stage spring. Will need to find a much lighter spring as the factory one is much to heavy, There is only a very fine line between loose and floppy sear and too heavy.

Might have to try the universal pen spring.

I had no idea that you can play around with the springs. I would have not dismissed the LP400 had I known that I could have improved the trigger.... I cannot believe that at Walther they do not realize how bad it is!

therider wrote:I had no idea that you can play around with the springs. I would have not dismissed the LP400 had I known that I could have improved the trigger.... I cannot believe that at Walther they do not realize how bad it is!

So... you're passing a strong negative judgment on a world-class pistol without having known enough about it to be aware that it could be opened and fiddled with?

I think the LP400 has a very nice trigger.

therider wrote: I cannot believe that at Walther they do not realize how bad it is!

Hm, the LP400-trigger is considered to be close to perfect by a lot of top shooters all over the world. It was designed by engineers, who shoot in the german air pistol premier league (which has a lot of international top-scorers) and in the national team.

Those (few) shooters, who prefer a lower second stage weight, might feel an improvement after changing the spring. But as a long time pistol shooter, guntester/writer and national level coach, who worked with many top shooters, I would not recommend to go lower 100 grams at the second stage (120 g is the factory setting), because there is a certain danger to "overpull" because of the relation between first and second stage weight. Only a few shooters are really able to control the release.

Anyway, therider - perhaps after you have improved your shooting technique so much that you constantly hold an average of 9 points or more with any match air pistol you like, we can talk further about "bad triggers". At the moment, sorry, I doubt, that you can already judge this. One training-session per week is only enough not to forget how to drive to the shooting range. You nearly start again from scratch every week.

Ulrich

David M wrote:LP400 trigger..... a new spring and a couple of rubs with a diamond lap and hey presto the trigger has improved greatly.
Now setup with 430g 1st stage and 80g 2nd stage and a very slight soft roll off feel.

I think the original setup with the two opposing springs is a better set up than the later setup with just the single reduced spring.
What I didn't like was the hard let off feel with the trigger collapse after release.
By changing the sear angle slightly (reduced by less than 1 deg.) it softened the let off feel and I had to increase the spring tension slightly but I used reduced coil thickness but more coils to achieve the required balance.
A very small increase in sear engagement also helped change the feel to a slight roll off feel with less trigger weight reduction after a very smooth trigger release.
The minimum I can now set on the second stage is 50g but it feels better at 80g.

In my view the LP400 is an excellent piece of quality design and engineering. But I have had trigger inconsistency ever since new (its 2 years old now, serial 72005).
In my case I had virtually no second stage weight (imagine the spring loose, or even absent) but still needed over 150g est to release. I dryfire between 20 and 50 shots a day. Muzzle noticeably came down then rose on release. Nothing like my Morini or earlier LP10. After trying various springs I concluded that the levers were hanging up on each other due to maybe friction or unpolished surfaces, or incorrect grinding. My career is toolmaking/machining so I had an idea what to look at. Coincidentally, Davids message of remedial work came up on this board. I dismantled the levers, saw that they were nicely polished and sharp cornered, poliished a small angle on one and reassembled. Instant success. I now set the second stage to 90-100g and then wind on first stage tension to give me over 500g total.

Jr, yes....I am a beginner and, although I am an engineer, I would have not dreamt of fiddling with a precision instrument, not being an expert.

Ulrich, I love the LP400, and it was really painful for me not to buy it and to opt for the usual LP10E!
Also, I love the professionality of Walther staff....every single one of those I spoke to were extremely polite, nice and professional. Really a top class company!

You are right that I am inexperienced. However the web is full of post of people complaining about the trigger of LP400. The proof is that the last posts in here are about modifing the original trigger!
Also, many people I spoke to (with lots of experience) do not like the trigger.

I have never read and/or talked to anybody complaining about the Pardini k12 or the LP10 trigger. Sorry, this is fact!

By the way.... In Visier 2012/4 there are the diagrams of the trigger release of 5 pistols. The only diagram which is "white" with no curve is that regarding the LP400.
I have downloaded various pdfs of the same article but all of them present the same empty diagram.
Has anybody had the chance of seeing it? Or was the article published with such an editorial problem?
I would be interested in seeing it

therider wrote:By the way.... In Visier 2012/4 there are the diagrams of the trigger release of 5 pistols. The only diagram which is "white" with no curve is that regarding the LP400.
I have downloaded various pdfs of the same article but all of them present the same empty diagram.
Has anybody had the chance of seeing it? Or was the article published with such an editorial problem?
I would be interested in seeing it

http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... download=1

My German has suffered from decades of disuse, so I don't feel totally confident of my translation. Still, one thing is clear from the article on the "hot six": Since the dawn of mammals, Visier has always given top grades to air pistols built by German speaking manufacturers; now it appears that the editors don't even bother to acknowledge the existence of AP's made by Italian speakers. Not that they would reflect anything but the authors' prejudices, where are the graphs and data for the Pardini K12, MatchGuns MG1E (or H) or even the dated but still highly regarded Morini CM162Ea?

Interesting diagrams in Visier. Does Visier appear in English?

madmax wrote:Interesting diagrams in Visier. Does Visier appear in English?

Does SSUSA appear in German?