TargetTalk

ghostrip wrote:may i ask mr ulrich how less accurate ap20 is, lets say compared to lp400?

Sorry for not answering earlier - even we Germans have holidays (I still have two weeks from today on... :) )

I think everybody knows that the precision and the group size is always the result of the combination of a certain gun and a certain lot number of pellets. To receive a certain high precision you need more than "a better barrel", you need a valve which works with a great consistency to deliver always the same amount of air and so on.

The factory groups which the Ulm based designers received were all "clean" inside the 10-ring, which is 11,5 mm in diameter. We would officially state group sizes between 9 and 11 mm - in reality you can keep a 10-mm-group as the baddest result. The german gun magazines, that have published tests in the last months, got 10-shot-groups down to 6,5 mm (with Vogel pellets, Scott P. will be happy - but german production). The average groups, with up to 60 shots, were not bigger than 10 mm (all measured outside diameter of the group). CIBLES in france published the same test results.

Although we are happy about these results - they are nearly "too good" for an entry-level air pistol...

But we still believe, that our top level airpistols, the LP300 as the LP400, deliver more consistent and even smaller groups. And that is not a marketing or sales claim but experience over longer periods.

So, that seems to be the core of the question: Yes, there will be a certain moment in the future, when a shooter has to decide to put away his AP20 for a "better" air pistol, because he is "outgrown" of it. And that's not only from the precision point of view, but also because of a better trigger, better sights, a better fitting wooden grip or because he is tired of checking the tank with a seperate manometer instead of simply looking at a build-in one. With the exception of the barrel and the system one can upgrade the AP20 with the LP400 equipment, which will prolongate that decision. But you have to calculate, if you not better put this additional money into a new top air pistol to reach the next level in your shooting career.

Since I received my first coach licence now 30 years ago I have always encountered shooters, who were able to shoot excellent results with average pistols - for example some russians, who won international competitions with an Ish-46 or even old FWB 65. I am sure we will see those results in the near future also from AP20-shooters. The difference will be more on the psychological side: as a shooter you don't only have to deliver good results, you will have to deal with the psycho-pressure if you shoot an "exotic" gun AND don't deliver your expected result. Nearly everybody from your coach (hopefully not) to your team members will advice you to change the pistol as an important part of the "problem". You have to be very self-confident to withstand these attacks..

So, everybody please buy the LP400 instead of the AP20 - it's good for you (and for our company)... THAT WAS A JOKE!

I personally see the AP20 as an excellent entry level pistol for young shooters as for clubs. But the AP20 is also too precise, you don't get an excuse-letter for free included in the pistol case...

Ulrich (leaving for lunch at the hotel-pool)

I've tried one of these guns, and am very pleased to report that the trigger has a greater range of fit adjustability than any other air gun I've ever fired. My fingers are short, so being ale to bring the trigger closer to the back of the frame is very significant. Also, the adjustable grip fits everyone pretty well. The downside is that your hands can still sweat profusely. I will probably get a Rink grip for mine. None-the-less; this would make an outstanding club gun. Once I adjusted the sear engagement I was able to get a nice crisp let-off. I wish a gun like this had been available when I started shooting (about 1980). I think this gun has a lot of potential and will help to popularize the sport.

Hi All,

a test is located here:
http://www.carl-walther.de/public/downl ... i_AP20.pdf

I will post the accuracy results below.

The short of it : IMHO the pistol is not worth the 950$.

Not better than an FWB 65 or an Izzy, or an Alpha Proj for that matter,
and these are a lot cheaper.

IF you add a Walther wood grip to it, you are approaching 1200$ - but you won't have a recoil absorber and you can't adjust the grip angle or rotation.




Präzisionstest Hämmerli AP20
Hersteller
Diameter
[mm]
Geschoss-
gewicht [g]
Streukreis
[mm]*
H&N Finale Match LP
4,50
0,49
7,5 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
H&N Finale Match LG
4,50
0,53
6,9 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
RWS R 10
4,49
0,53
8,0 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
RWS R 10 Match
4,50
0,53
7,6 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
Vogel
4,49
0,50
9,1 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
Vogel
4,495
0,50
7,6 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
Vogel
4,50
0,50
8,8 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters
JSB
4,50
0,535
9,0 <<<<<<<<<< edge to edge 10 shot hole, 10 meters


Cheers,
Andy

I'm impressed, that obviously the US shooters have FWB 65, Izh 46 or Alpha whatever capable of shooting 10-shot-groups OUTER edge to edge below 9 mm... ;)

The rest of the world doesn't.

Don't get me wrong.
I am a big fan of Walther Pistols - I own an LP400 Carbon Compact:) and it is
worth every penny.


The AP 20 is simply too expensive here in the US.
Pyramid wants 950$ for it and for what it is, it is too much money.

That's all.

-Andy

...

I was under the impression (for whatever reason) the AP20 was going to be in the $700-$800 range and got excited.. Then when Pyramydair posted it at $960, my enthusiasm was deflated. So I started looking for good used deals. Ended up with a $375 Alfa Proj CO2 sport. It's producing sub 1/4" groups which is plenty good enough for a beginner like me. It may not be the hottest fanciest pistol out there but I am digging it.
My disappointment with the AP 20 is lost hope that a manufacture was going to get the stratospheric pricing down to a reasonable level for a competition pistol. So. you have two guns in the sub $700 category. The AA Alfa proj PCP which is a nice light accurate gun. Then you have the IZH 46m. At 3lbs it is way too heavy for most people and paying $560 for a SSP is just silly.
For now I will pass on the AP20

The only way we will ever see a low price new PCP target pistol is if it's made in China.

But, would you buy one?

j-team wrote:The only way we will ever see a low price new PCP target pistol is if it's made in China.

But, would you buy one?

No, probably not. Not that the Chinese aren't capable of building a high quality gun, it's just not likely. They are still going through there industrial revolution.
I think $700 to $800 is a fair price for a good quality 10m pistol. I also think it's an untapped market. When you can get a solid sporter 10m PCP rifle from Crosman, Airforce and Air Arms for under $700, certainly a it can be done with a pistol.

The AP20 isn't a top PCP pistol for sure but it is a unique offer on the market.

Even if its price isn't as low as some would like to have it, it is really cheaper than any other new PCP pistol (don't compare it with old stuff like the FWB 65 and IZH46, no young shooter wants to use these pistols anymore, proposing such pistol to a young shooter is the best manner to make her/him stop shooting).

Young shooters (especially girls) also like the fact that the color can be customized.

It has also a unique grip that, even if it isn't as good as a real anatomic grip, can grow with the hand of the young shooter and for shooting club it can be adapted to right or left hand shooters.

So, I think that this pistol is an excellent manner to attract young shooter into sport shooting and Hammerli made a very good job by developing this pistol. It is also very good for Walther as shooters who started with the AP20 will most probably first look at Walther when they will consider to buy an high end AP.

For non European shooters, the problem is the high Euro/dollar rate that makes all European pistols (= almost all match pistols, air or .22) very expensive.

Maybe the problem is not the Euro, but the US Dollar...

I think the current Alpha Project PCP for 650$ is the best deal around.
Looks cool (blue metallic shrouded barrel) , not heavy, adjustable grip (rotation and angle), palm shelf, excellent trigger and
as accurate as the AP 20.


- Andy

Andy wrote:I think the current Alpha Project PCP for 650$ is the best deal around.
Looks cool (blue metallic shrouded barrel) , not heavy, adjustable grip (rotation and angle), palm shelf, excellent trigger and
as accurate as the AP 20.


- Andy

My Alfa Proj. CO2 sport is producing 5 shot .162 CTC when clamped and using H&N finale Match 4.50mm. Even better then the factory test card.
I agree, the PCP version is a bargain. They dumped the adjustable palm shelf. It would have been nice if they would have kept the LH and RH grips with the adjustable palm shelf like the CO2 version. What is real attractive about the AP20 and the Alfa Proj is the sub 2 pound weight. I don't know why everyone raves about the IZH 46m? At 2.8 lbs, its nearly impossible for the average person to hold single handed and produce more then five accurate shots. You have to pump up the pirate pec's to use a gun that heavy. Start light and add weight is my thinking.

Hm, the quoted 950 Dollars are equivalent to todays 699 Euro, this is exactly the suggested retail price in germany. Without the costs for the transfer to USA of course, and any currency-related differences.

Different to most other match guns in the Walther/Hämmerli-portfolio for the AP20 there is only a very small margin left for dealers: no big rebates, there has only been an introduction offer at the IWA 2013 for german dealers: 10 pistols for the price of 9, only one order per shop. There is no reduction if a dealer orders it without the grip (and ordering a walnut grip of the LP 400 instead). So if you check german online shops, they offer the AP20 close to the suggested price, perhaps add some pellet tins etc., that's it.

The AP20 was calculated very cost-conscious, without hopes for big cash. And we think that the pistol is quality-related above all the competitor guns here in germany, which are K11 from Feinwerkbau, Pardini Kid etc. (Alpha Proj, AirArms, Izh 46 are not or no longer available here). And from the samples I have seen and shot myself in the recent years I wouldn't put all of them into the same drawer as the AP20. So a further price reduction won't be made by the manufacturer, because it's already the limit.

If someone get's a gun for a lower price with equal or better performance: feel free, take it and be happy. And of course there a a lot of second-hand airpistols on the market to do the same job with only a few or even none disadvantages.

(In the end McGyver was also able to fly a broken Jumbo Jet with only the help of his swiss pocket knive, duck tape and some paper clips... :) )

its nearly impossible for the average person to hold single handed and produce more then five accurate shots.

Average person - who cares? We 10M pistol shooters are all exceptional... except for the ones who are very exceptional.

william wrote:

We 10M pistol shooters are all exceptional... except for the ones who are very exceptional.

I was just too shy to mention this obvious fact :)

My grandson is shooting this pistol, he is 6.

I've been shooting an AP20 for several months and I'm very impressed with it. Like all pistols it took some time initially to get it adjusted just right. Happily the AP20 is an extremely adjustable pistol.

The trigger of course has all the normal adjustments, mine was great out of the box so I haven't needed to change it. The rear sight width adjustment is superb on a pistol of this price.

I'm most impressed with the grip, it is a masterpiece of tuneability. The ability to adjust the the thumb rest independent of the palm rest is brilliant, all grips should have this feature.

Now I love a beautiful walnut grip as much as the next guy and I have a few, Rink, Morini, Walther, Fas and Hammerli. What I hate is having to put car bog on my beautiful walnut grip to get the fit right, so I don't. Consequently they are never exactly right, close but not exact. Rink come very very close, but for a price.

With the AP20 I did make a new palm rest, to get it just right. I have an XL size hand, so the standard palm rest was too small for me. The end result is as close to perfect as I have experience in 25 years shooting ISSF pistols. Forget about the grip being plastic and not having the aesthetic appeal of walnut, it works!

Third time out with the AP20, I shot my second best score (540) in eighteen months. Maybe when I am consistently shooting high 550+ with the AP20, I will consider forking out for the next level of pistol, but certainly not before. I hope the AP20 is a huge success and Walther keep on making them and supplying parts for years, it deserve to be!

Update:

I’ve been shooting the AP20 for one year, having fired approximately 2000 shot and the pistol has performed flawlessly. Best result to date is 547, with a typical average around 540. So I haven’t hit the mid 550’s yet. Looks like I will be shooting the AP20 for a while yet!

I have found an epoxy product, “Aqua Knead It” from Selleys, that will adheres to the plastic of the grip. Therefore the grip can be fully customised for an individual shooters needs, as required.

For me the gun in standard form is a little too muzzle light. So I have added weight to the front of the barrel and largely resolve the issue. I have also ordered a full length LP400 cylinder which should add a bit more weight up front.

The cylinder has been on order for a couple of month, with still no confirmation of when it will arrive. So I have to say that supply of parts from Walther has not improved any!

Otherwise I am still very happy with the AP20 and don’t believe my scores would improve significantly, at this time, with any other pistol.

Update:

I have been shooting the AP20 with an LP400 cylinder for two months now and am very happy with it. The extra weight and length have moved the balance point significantly towards the muzzle. Which is exactly what I was hoping it would do. Combined with 150 grams of extra barrel weights, the overall balance is perfect for me. And now closely matches the other pistols I shoot, which is ideal. Combined with the grip changes described above, the AP20 feels and performs great. So much so that I would be very reluctant to change to a different pistol now, even if a great deal on a higher spec model turned up. When you reach the point with any pistol where everything feel right, you can't ask for much more than that. I am still chasing that elusive 550 score, but I have a feeling it is not far away!

On a less positive note, the cylinder took 5 months to arrive, so not great parts support from Walther. Personally I love Walther and Hammerli pistols, of which I have 5 in total and have no plans to change. But I do wish Walther would wake up and sort out their support issues. I have spoken to many shooter that say the won't buy Walther or Hammerli pistols because of poor support from the company. When I started pistol shooting 28 year ago, everybody shot Walther or Hammerli. Now most seem to shoot Pardini, Morini and or Steyr, which is a crying shame!

I know I am a little late on posting this, as per the dates on the initial posts, but, I am a pistol coach in Ft. Smith Arkansas and I have been pretty impressed with this pistol. We have 6 kids that compete with this gun and have been for 2 years. These kids range in age from 9-14 and have really grown with this gun. It does have a lot of adjustements, and my son now has a 3D memory grip on his. One nice thing about this gun is it helps with the PPP program because of the ability to turn the tank down. It does reduce stress on the hands of young competitiors and small framed youth. This gun is more accurate than the kids that shoot them, have a light frame as compared to other guns in this price range and while I do not necessarly agree with it, the kids love having their barel a different color than other people. I have seen a few issues with some of these guns, but these guns get quite a bit of use. I made my son a promise that when he won a final he could have choice of new guns, I hope he wins one soon so I can inherit his "old gun" LOL

Reviving the thread.
Newbie here, started shooting in 2018.
I own a Hämmerli AP20 Pro - and I am from India - at least here till Nationals, all competitions are 40 shots.
Till now, I scored a max 377/400 with it - my max score.
So I do believe it is fantastic - and fascinatingly accurate.

Now the bad parts - self inflicted.
I put grease on it - and that did have a terrible effect on the gun.
First the trigger started getting harder and harder - and that after effect is continuing.
Just before 7 days of the state competition the trigger became so so hard - that I had to tune it, and I crashed out of the tournament.
Even today the trigger was acting weird.Put olive oil - to lubricate it.

I am not too sure if the trouble is due to what I have done or the gun has a problem of getting the trigger harder and harder.
Can be my mistake, or both.
I ordered an LP 500 Expert E trigger - waiting for it, and then I will send the gun back to Walther to see what is wrong with it.

The fact that I could score 95+/100 - multiple times using this, demonstrates it's awesomeness.
Even now, the gun is more accurate than I am, I suppose.
But as luck would have it, ... did not work out well for me.