TargetTalk

schatzperson wrote:Hope the OP doesnt mind a bit more hi-jack, but this threads diversions has intriguing detail.
Isabel, when you say that the 45 exposes triggering errors, you are referring to the 3.5 Lbs, yes ? I ask this because "45" often means 1911 platform de facto.
I tend to agree with your statement. However, is it possible that the 1911 design magnifies these errors to some degree?
I know the 1911 is so popular and diffuse and really dont mean to denigrate it in any way, but the left side of my brain makes me ask questions.
So called "forgiveness" of bad triggering might sound like black magic, but it is not; Its just a collection of brief, imperceptible vectorial forces that take place as the the trigger breaks and all the tiny movements imparted while the bullet is still in the gun.
This is very difficult to quantify ( just think of the many contributing factors, pivotal resultants of triggering action and frame itself in recoil etc etc).
Seems to me however that its pretty well established that a "higher" rake and low bore, commonly seen as contributing to just lesser recoil rise, more importantly, assist "forgivness".
I know that the 1911 has served well and I have respect for its practicality; But I cant help wondering if its widespread popularity is sometimes self defeating, if it wipes away objective dissent so cleanly.

Anyway, I apologise for the rant, now back to earth.
A 45 slug might also have a stability advantage over a longer 38, since it has more peripheral mass for a given twist rate and speed. This should translate into better centrifugal stability over the 38.

Conventional pistol has big targets. Accuracy is probably good enough for most shooters at fifty yards with any gun that has been built to shoot that distance, with the proper twist rate in the barrel.

It is my belief that if you learn how to shoot a 4 pound trigger well, and then apply that technique to all your lighter triggers you will get very good results.
The1911 platform is popular in bullseye for a number of reasons that have very little to do with any kind of superior design. It is popular because it was the issued side arm for the American military, and was the only legal gun for the CMP LEG matches for many years. Because the military drove the evolution of the Conventional pistol game, they figured out how to make the 1911 shoot at 50 yards and it became a popular choice for Bullseye because of that.

Do I think a Pardini would work just as well? Yes, absolutely, but if you are going to shoot a Pardini with anatomical grips for the 45 match, you will hurt your overall scores, if you are not using the same platform for Centerfire and 22. The best shooters tend to use the same platform for all three matches. With the same platform, you can develop a consistent grip, and consistent triggering much more easily. If you wonder what I am doing up so late at night, the answer is, I am in Japan, and it is 6 pm right now....

Thank you for that quick rising sun reply about .45 US history; that ties up a few questions I had.
I cant help wondering which way things might have gone, if it were a different pistol.
Certainly, the 1911 has had a huge influence, but I also cant shake off the feeling that this success has actually swamped out of consideration other valid designs, for the sports shooter.
I have a Benelli 9mm in my safe; Its short recoil inertia locked. Barrel fixed to frame. Slide loose as hell. Lowish bore, luger rake. Shoots better than a Sig P210 in a vice and in one hand like a dream.
Also have a huge monster of a combat gun, Steyr Gb, gas delayed, trigger like fingernail on a rasp, but shoots almost just as well.
Tipping barrels.....no contest.

My point is that my willingness to consider the "archane", has led me to believe that a better target 45 suited for sport seems to be very far away in everyone's mind.
Since a while ago, I have had the good fortune to discuss the prospects of a new pistol with a guy high up in Sig SAN. After his initial raised eyebrows over the caliber choice, he told me that almost nobody will take the time, money and effort to develop a pistol specifically for sport, even if the marketing niche existed. So that rules out the big boy manufacturers for development. We then agreed over a beer and mutual smiles, that he will look at my ideas as I might occasionally supply through rough prototyping. Every now and then I bring up details in correspondence, of a gas retarded 45, with the recoil spring and most of the parts on top of the barrel. Still at it. When time and tools are available I might start working on a protoptype.
I have many more questions than answers of course, in fact I sometimes wonder if I might be so forward as to ask other shooters, far more expert than me about some detail or two. I hope I wont annoy anybody much, but maybe this is an opportunity for another thread.

So here we have it, the best is a century old gun for the trenches :-)

schatzperson wrote:Thank you for that quick rising sun reply about .45 US history; that ties up a few questions I had.
I cant help wondering which way things might have gone, if it were a different pistol.
Certainly, the 1911 has had a huge influence, but I also cant shake off the feeling that this success has actually swamped out of consideration other valid designs, for the sports shooter.
I have a Benelli 9mm in my safe; Its short recoil inertia locked. Barrel fixed to frame. Slide loose as hell. Lowish bore, luger rake. Shoots better than a Sig P210 in a vice and in one hand like a dream.
Also have a huge monster of a combat gun, Steyr Gb, gas delayed, trigger like fingernail on a rasp, but shoots almost just as well.
Tipping barrels.....no contest.

My point is that my willingness to consider the "archane", has led me to believe that a better target 45 suited for sport seems to be very far away in everyone's mind.
Since a while ago, I have had the good fortune to discuss the prospects of a new pistol with a guy high up in Sig SAN. After his initial raised eyebrows over the caliber choice, he told me that almost nobody will take the time, money and effort to develop a pistol specifically for sport, even if the marketing niche existed. So that rules out the big boy manufacturers for development. We then agreed over a beer and mutual smiles, that he will look at my ideas as I might occasionally supply through rough prototyping. Every now and then I bring up details in correspondence, of a gas retarded 45, with the recoil spring and most of the parts on top of the barrel. Still at it. When time and tools are available I might start working on a protoptype.
I have many more questions than answers of course, in fact I sometimes wonder if I might be so forward as to ask other shooters, far more expert than me about some detail or two. I hope I wont annoy anybody much, but maybe this is an opportunity for another thread.

So here we have it, the best is a century old gun for the trenches :-)

Part of the reason for the 1911's popularity, is that is is a simple gun. Easy to operate, easy to work on, and very few breakable parts. It also shoots well, and reliably. In a sport like bullseye, it is important for the gun to be reliable, and being reliable with cheap ammo, like lead wadcutters is even better for those of us with limited budgets. Is it optimum? No, there are trade offs, like with everything else. However, like the proverbial VW beetle it fills a need, at a price point, that is very attractive to casual shooters, who are thinking about getting into bullseye.
I find it much more helpful, when thinking about gun design, to ask myself why something has become so popular, and so ubiquitous, than to speculate as to why something else would be better. The perfect gun, like the perfect car, or the perfect golf club, is an elusive quest, that can take a competitive shooter down a road of nit picking and second guessing themselves, to the point that they lose focus on the most important elements ;the shooter, the hold, and the triggering.

Yes, true at the end of the day its down to shooter, hold and trigger.
And thats no small feat; It takes a lot of smart effort to make things work for a pistolero. Which is why I would want the best that can be had.
And I am not asking for much, just a low slung barrel, fixed to the frame and an adjustable trigger.
This will do away with expensive barrel fitting, bushings etc. No doubt custom gunsmiths wont like this one.
A stamped steel frame will outlast many of us as well and make things even cheaper.
Having said this, I am at a point in life where I accept that some things got us where we are, not because we are perfect, but because we are human complete with failures and achievements.

Schatz;

You mention that you have a Benelli 9mm in you safe that shoots great. What model is it?

I also wonder if there isn't a better mousetrap than the 1911. I guess that's why I shoot a Pardini GT45 in Bullseye. I do see the point that the 1911 is the VW Bug of the gun world. The primary and aftermarket support can't be beat.

With respect to a gas-retarded .45 pistol, I read a few years back about gas-retarded top end conversions for the 1911. Apparently a noted Bullseye smith from Hawaii had also developed one. (I forget the specific smith)

Thanks,

-John

John,
My 9mm Benelli is an MP3S. Its the target version of their short lived B76 a truly excellent performer, killed by Twain Stacks, Polly Mair and Polly Tics. I also have the 32 WC version.
The MP3S shoots better than the expensive Sphinx 3000 I had bought new at one time.
This reminds me of a little anecdote: I never liked the 2 Kilo trigger as delivered by Sphinx and wrote to them several times about it. One way or the other I was on speaking terms with their main marketing guy and on the phone I could see him looking at his shoes while letting me know that NO, we know better and we will not do what you ask.
At that time, as our local association's vice president, I was in touch with the NRA about us starting a NRA conventional pistol sanctioned affiliation.
Brian Zinns was the then director pistol program and at some point, inevitably, we were talking shooting irons on the phone. He said he saw the new "interesting" Sphinx and I offered to get him an introduction.
I had figured that a company that made high end pistols with target pretensions the size of an elephant, would be interested in meeting a world class champion like Zinns......Nope nothing doing, Sphinx did not even consider it and I felt like a failed pimp with Claudia Schiffer on the rear seat.
A while later I shot the Benelli, an older oddball made of "cheap" pressed steel that handled much better than the blue blooded Sphinx. I sold the Spinx for about 1/3 I paid for. ----Derive your life lessons as you may from this story.

The gas design I had in mind would do away with frame geometry better suited for combat as is the 1911. I am thinking a simple chamber above the barrel will do the job and permit a low enough boreline. This will give us very few working parts and no expensive handfitting to ensure barrel fit consistency that the browning lock reguires.
Furthermore, costly machining can be avoided by using a pressed steel frame. Strong, light and durable.
If the gas chamber is made with a large enough area, it will dissipate heat much much better than the H&K P7 design.
It works very well in the Steyr GB.
Theory, at least, would indicate that in a lower pressure round like the 45 the above mentioned would work in favor.
I am tempted to begin some prototype work at least on the gas/slide/barrel lock system and see how it works out. One of the chief items on my mind is the trigger because I know that it takes more than mere intuition to design a consistent unit. My hope is that if I were to demonstrate a successful lock then maybe better skilled individuals like my SAN contact will sit up and show more interest.

PS : Open question to shooters.
Would you mind terribly if your excellent 45, gets very dirty and needs a good scrub every say.....200 shots ?

Here's a link to the fixed barrel, gas retarded blowback 1911 upper from Ed Masaki. http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2008/08/e ... n-gun.html
Google Masaki Dragon Gun for several informative links and youtube videos.

It sounds like this is what you have in mind?

I don't mind cleaning my gun every 200 rounds.

-John

If I remember correctly, there were some dissatisfaction a couple of posts ago with the bushing holding the barrel on the 1911?

Want to know a way around that? Put a full length guide rod in the gun, and use it to hold the gun open and pull the slide off the frame without taking off the bushing. None of my 45's have ever had the bushing removed, except to replace the barrel.
I like the 1911 platform, but there is a big difference between the ones I shoot and the ones I checked out of the arms room in the 1980's.
To use the VW analogy, mine are more like a high end Porche, under the hood. :-)
and anyone who has only experienced a stock 1911 made in Asia, needs to try a custom gun produced by a good gunsmith in the US to appreciate how fine the design of a properly built 1911 really is.

Dont get me wrong guys. I like the 1911 in most forms. Recently I tried a friend's Peter Stahl's linkless version and was favorably impressed.
But man oh man, that skyscraper on top of my wrist is just too much.
I love it for what it is. A fine combat gun that looks good too.
To get that swinging barrel to lock-up consistently you need to put up with over-tight tolerancies and pay painfully.

John, have not seen the Ed Mazaki design up close, it sounds like a neat design, but what I had in mind is a cross between an HK p7 and a Steyr GB.

Isabel, just this last few days I was looking at the various ways to make "my" idea disassemble, so your words made me sit up.
Not quiet sure if I understood you correct......"use the full length guide rod to hold open".......

schatzperson wrote:Dont get me wrong guys. I like the 1911 in most forms. Recently I tried a friend's Peter Stahl's linkless version and was favorably impressed.
But man oh man, that skyscraper on top of my wrist is just too much.
I love it for what it is. A fine combat gun that looks good too.
To get that swinging barrel to lock-up consistently you need to put up with over-tight tolerancies and pay painfully.

John, have not seen the Ed Mazaki design up close, it sounds like a neat design, but what I had in mind is a cross between an HK p7 and a Steyr GB.

Isabel, just this last few days I was looking at the various ways to make "my" idea disassemble, so your words made me sit up.
Not quiet sure if I understood you correct......"use the full length guide rod to hold open".......

I could send pictures but of course, I don't have the guns with me in Japan. When you pull the slide completely to the rear, it exposes a hole in the full length guide rod. You can put a bent paper clip, a staple with one leg straightened, or a very tiny Allan wrench in that hole, which holds the gun open, and lets you take out the slide stop, and then pull the intact slide off the rail, without removing the bushing.

Interesting Isabel.
Would like to see those photos. Unless you're in Japan for the next several Christmases, I can wait thanks .

schatzperson wrote:Interesting Isabel.
Would like to see those photos. Unless you're in Japan for the next several Christmases, I can wait thanks .

I should be home in May, remind me. :-)

Check out Brownells, they have guide rods with holes in them for breaking down a gun the way he describes. I have a simular one on a comp gun.

You may also want to consider the S&W 945PC. The grip is similar to a 1911 and it comes from the factory with a superb trigger. I mounted a 7 minute Docter red dot with a BME mount which replaced the rear sight. Gun is superbly accurate. The only minus is that it is not a 1911 so 1911 accessories do not work with it.