TargetTalk

Thanks Cameron :-)

bluetentacle wrote:Thanks Cameron :-)

Awesome review, I really enjoyed it!

Thanks a lot or taking the time to put it together.

Have a great week,

kev

I'm curious. How would you classify this gun from an accuracy point of view. Shooting 5 shot groups at 50yds with match grade ammo would this be a 1/4 MOA gun ? An 1/8 MOA gun etc. ?

Thanks in advance

I do plan to do a section dedicated to accuracy, but here's a summary. With matching ammo, my current rifle is able to consistently shoot 13-14mm 10-shot groups from a rest, measured edge-to-edge, at 50 meters. This is about 0.5 to 0.58MOA. It could be that I can further tune the gun to shoot smaller groups, but my focus has been on position work, rather than pure mechanical accuracy.

The standard practice in the world of ISSF shooting is to shoot 10-shot groups and measure them edge-to-edge. To my knowledge, holy grail of smallbore accuracy is widely considered to be 10mm (0.3MOA), with 12mm (0.44MOA) being the limit of most top rifles.

It also bears repeating that shooting an occasional knot doesn't count--the rifle needs to shoot the same small groups reliably.

It sounds like Kevin Nevius has done a lot more tuning and experiments than I have. Kevin, care to chime in on how well the stock barrel has been performing for you?

I agree with the last post on this topic but I would also add that wind plays a major part in testing.Obviously a .22 is going to be effected by wind.5 shot groups may look smart as the hole is small but is a false reading.And I would also suggest that several 10 shot groups or even 20 and 30 shot groups would be a better idea.
The Racer review is truly a massive plug for the company and if I was in the market for a new rifle this would surely play a major part in the decision.Thanks to the author for taking the time.

bluetentacle wrote:I do plan to do a section dedicated to accuracy, but here's a summary. With matching ammo, my current rifle is able to consistently shoot 13-14mm 10-shot groups from a rest, measured edge-to-edge, at 50 meters. This is about 0.5 to 0.58MOA. It could be that I can further tune the gun to shoot smaller groups, but my focus has been on position work, rather than pure mechanical accuracy.

The standard practice in the world of ISSF shooting is to shoot 10-shot groups and measure them edge-to-edge. To my knowledge, holy grail of smallbore accuracy is widely considered to be 10mm (0.3MOA), with 12mm (0.44MOA) being the limit of most top rifles.

It also bears repeating that shooting an occasional knot doesn't count--the rifle needs to shoot the same small groups reliably.

It sounds like Kevin Nevius has done a lot more tuning and experiments than I have. Kevin, care to chime in on how well the stock barrel has been performing for you?

Tony:

I have worked with the rifle for several months (extensively this past fall) developing "sweet spots" with several lots of Lapua XACT ammunition. The only setback initially was the extension tube - I had the single lug design you mentioned, so I had to make an extended / threaded version of my own before I could begin).

I used the factory barrel (also a Shilen Ratchet, like yours). I think I outlined the tuning procedure in a previous post (I hope!). Please see the attached picture of the extended tube. I added a front sight stop to ensure the position of the mass could be repeated.

I found my initial sweet spots, then verified them with (10) 5 shot groups. After the best spot was chosen, multiple lots (of varying velocities) were tested (in very good conditions, at 50m outdoors).

My best lot currently, is a fast lot of XACT (43544-5911 @ 1090fps). It seemed the faster the ammunition, the better the accuracy. Thru the years, my accuracy goal has been .400" outside edge / outside edge for the 50 shot aggregate. In 20 years of building rifles and testing, I have only achieved this standard twice! IMHO to be competitive, I fully agree with Tony that your rifle must be a .440" gun (around 11mm) to be comprtitive. With this lot of ammunition, my current aggregate is .412", which is exceptional.

I don't think there is a rifle (from any manufacturer) that "out of the box", with no effort, meets this accuracy standard - in spite of the technology. I do think that the G&E system is "tunable", and certainly (for me) was everything I expected!

Thanks again for the exceptional review,

kev

Kevin, thanks for the update. The "aggregates" that you quoted--they are averages of 10 5-shot groups, correct?

What I didn't mention in the article is that throughout most of this time I shot with a Bee Sting tuner tube. I did do a bit of tuning using 5-shot groups, and found a couple of settings that turned out <11mm groups, repeated three times:

http://sdrv.ms/VRaU8C

I didn't proceed to do any 10-shot groups, however, as that that point I was getting tired of ammo testing. (Testing in my area is pretty hard work--I had no access to an indoor range and the need to wait for wind to die down made ammo testing sessions very slow and tedious.) When I shot these tunes in position, they didn't shoot as well as they did off the bench, so I had to re-tune in position.

At this moment, with both the Bee Sting and the G+E Gen2 tube, I can consistently shoot around 595 on the 50m target. I do plan on doing further tuning work in position, in the coming days.

One thing nice about the Gen2 tube is the 11mm rail on the barrel clamp. If you mount a weight on it (such as the Tec-HRO 50g rail weight), it can serve as a tuning weight.

My barrel seems to like the faster stuff as well. It prefers the mid-range ammo (Black Box and Center-X), and shoots most of the higher-priced stuff from both Eley and Lapua poorly, probably because those lots tend to be on the slow side.

bluetentacle wrote:Kevin, thanks for the update. The "aggregates" that you quoted--they are averages of 10 5-shot groups, correct?

Tony:

Yes, that's correct. The numbers are the averages of (10) 5 shot groups.

I am very fortunate to live way out in the sticks of Ohio - right outside my shop is my range (out to 100 yards). I can turn a barrel, fit it and test it in just a few hours. I can also pick and choose my conditions and time of day I test (there's never any waiting!! LOL).

I use the clamp, front sight and locator together to tune. The assembly is very light, but is way out in front of the muzzle (which I think makes it as effective as a heavier weight near the crown).

If you are shooting 595's in any kind of conditions, you are doing very well IMHO. Lately (outdoors) I find a 597 VERY rare, even in great conditions. My iron sight scores are not improving as I age! (Go figure!)

I am worried about using it for the coming season though - it is the best rifle / ammunition combinitation I have by far, but in the past I have been eaten alive @ Camp Perry in high winds. Fast ammunition and high wind speeds don't mix very well in my experience.

As a back-up plan, I have been turning some new barrels for the 2000 series Anschutz action for some springtime work. This action works very well in this stock too!

Don't give up on the Lapua stuff - there are some really great lots out there!

I also understand what you are saying regarding testing - and the results translating over to position shooting. I test from the bench, but am not convinced (like you, I think) that I get the same performance in position. Some sweetspots are great, some not - so just like you, after I develop them, I test them in prone. It must be in the recoil impulse - and probably many other factors.

I meant to ask you, have you ever had a chance to come to the Nationals @ Perry?

Thanks again,

kev

Kevin, yes, I was at Perry in '12. I was in the humps, right next to Matt Chezem. I think you were shooting to the left of me. You can look up my scores (Tony Chow). The wind wasn't kind to me, unfortunately, and I cross-fired a few times (on my own target).

I also went to Perry in 2010 and 2011 as a High Power shooter. This year I might skip it as the USAS events are my priority.

What's your theory on why higher speed ammo is bad in the wind?

bluetentacle wrote:Kevin, yes, I was at Perry in '12. I was in the humps, right next to Matt Chezem. I think you were shooting to the left of me. You can look up my scores (Tony Chow). The wind wasn't kind to me, unfortunately, and I cross-fired a few times (on my own target).

I also went to Perry in 2010 and 2011 as a High Power shooter. This year I might skip it as the USAS events are my priority.

What's your theory on why higher speed ammo is bad in the wind?

Tony:

I remember you! I was to your left (down in the moguls!). I believe you were using the Racer there (I remember drooling over it!!)

If you have access to a ballistics program, run the 22RF bullet at muzzle velocities of 1090 and 1040 (I use a ballistic coefficient of .134). I don't remember exactly why, but as subsonic projectiles approach the speed of sound they actually display more wind deflection. In a 10mph full value cross wind, the deflections @ 50/100 yards for the 1040 bullet are 1.15"/4.12" - for the 1090 bullet they are 1.25"/4.47". It does not sound like much, but it feels like it when shooting at the ISU targets!

I apologize for not getting a chance to meet you!

I hope you have a great 2013 season though, let me know if you plan to travel east.

kev

Kevin, you are correct about faster lots having more deflection. Multiple sources confirm it.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/guns/1022/22drift_cross.html

Does G & E have a U.S. distributor ? Bleiker ?

The US distributor is Brenzovich. I'm not aware of anyone distributing Bleikers at this moment, though you can always find an importer and buy direct.

ISS advertises Bleiker

http://www.iss-internationalshootersser ... ifles.html

kevin nevius wrote: Thru the years, my accuracy goal has been .400" outside edge / outside edge for the 50 shot aggregate. In 20 years of building rifles and testing, I have only achieved this standard twice! IMHO to be competitive, I fully agree with Tony that your rifle must be a .440" gun (around 11mm) to be comprtitive. With this lot of ammunition, my current aggregate is .412", which is exceptional.
kev

Sounds like i need to take tuning more seriously, I tested my rifle when i first received it, With 10X my first 5 shot group was .7" (from a cleaned barrel) then .401" for a five shot group. I then shot a 10 shot group that measured .526" all Edge to edge. this is with my FWB 2602.

My current ability for the 50m match is 583's to a high of 589. my mid year goal is to break into the 590's. Think one of your tuner tubes would help this happen?

Not trying to thread jack but this is a very informal topic.