TargetTalk

What Robin said. Find a club first before spending a lot of money. Also what someone else said about asking to try rifles out. Best if you can borrow one from someone about your size - it'll be set up at least roughly right for you. Most shooters are only too delighted to "sell" the gun they chose for themself.

I think you already decided the junior versions were too small - I'd second that too. My daughter's 5'5 and has basically grown out of her junior FWB. It's now on full extension. She's banned from growing any more just yet :)

Skylark
Your daughter must have longer arms than me.
I'm 5'4". My coach set up my P70-jr with the stock at its shortest position. And that is with me not using a shooting jacket. I do casual shooting, not competition, so I don't have the shooting outfit.

I am near Hartford, Connecticut, and have still not found a club. I'll keep looking though.

Jon

GaryN wrote:Skylark
Your daughter must have longer arms than me.
I'm 5'4". My coach set up my P70-jr with the stock at its shortest position. And that is with me not using a shooting jacket. I do casual shooting, not competition, so I don't have the shooting outfit.

It's also that she has a long neck. The butt's as far out and as far down as it will go, and she's still almost on top of the rearsight.

She may well also have longer arms than you. It's my impression that adult males who aren't very tall tend to have relatively short limbs and a longer body, when compared to females who are the same height.

skylark, who is only 5'2.

Skylark
I have experience coaching a few short shooters (and I'm one!). With your daughter, have an experiment, try going up rather than longer, with sight raisers to the max and cheekpiece raised. You may find you can then shorten the rifle considerably which helps keep the C of G back and inproves ballance by keeping the head upright.

Sorry to the OP for hijacking the thread!

Robin

Not a big fan of sight raisers and taking the line of sight away from the barrel, but this is something we're planning to try when I get my hands on some sightraisers which will fit.

I'd rather drop the buttplate more so that the whole gun could go up...but even though she's well inside the limit of what you're allowed, there's no more adjustment on the junior gun.

Skylark,
Your daughter's body position is probably at 30* or more to the target, i'm guessing. I have a shorty son who does this to get his left arm further out to support the weight of the gun. If she tries a 10* body position, the shoulders will be straighter, the left arm not so far forward, and the stock might need to be shortened. This advise is heavily purloined from the " Ways of the Rifle".
Chris

skylark wrote:Not a big fan of sight raisers and taking the line of sight away from the barrel, but this is something we're planning to try when I get my hands on some sightraisers which will fit.

I'd rather drop the buttplate more so that the whole gun could go up...but even though she's well inside the limit of what you're allowed, there's no more adjustment on the junior gun.

I am not quit sure why your against sight risers, especially if they are needed to keep your neck straight as possible. The basis for keeping the neck straight is to allow for as much blood flow to the brain as possible and the more you tilt the head sideways and downwards not only curtails that blood flow, but applies tension to the muscles in the neck, which affect the muscles traveling down your arms all the way down to your fingers.

The focus is supposed to be on the front sight and not the barrel. If your using the barrel as part of the focus process then your complicating the process by adding another point for the brain to focus on which takes more energy and time. Keep the process as simple as possible, especially when they are young and just starting out and as they gain more experience you can try adding or experimenting later.

The bottom line here is that you use whatever technique and equipment the rules allows and works and try not to let your personal preferences interfere with what works best for the shooter and besides Matt Emmons and a number of other world champions don't seem to have a problem with sight risers or trying out any other new piece of equipment that they think may help them improve their standings.

Skylark
I use an offset riser on my rifle. It raises the sight and offsets it sligtly to the left. This helps me keep my head upright w/o canting the rifle over so much. The air rifle is only used at one distance, so risers and offset risers won't affect it like it would a rifle that is used at multiple distances.

And you are right, I wear a "short" suit, and those are hard to find. Maybe 6 compared to dozens of "regular" size suits.

I was fortunate enough to have a club nearby when I started so I signed out the extra equipment (scopes, stands, mats). My first match rifle was a 753. With this rifle I was able to learn all basic technique while being competitive in sporter matches. Without a coat, pants, and boots you rely more on the technique. In my opinion the 753 is very accurate for the money, but the trigger limits performance and overall the rifle is too light in weight for standing only but weight can be added and the trigger can be modified.
After a season my coach recommended I begin looking for a precision class rifle. I tried a friends SSP Diana 100. The 100 was built very well, but I couldn't locate a used one. I considered the TAU 200 but I didn't want to rely on CO2. I was able to purchase a used Superair 2001. The drawback to this rifle is that there's no dry fire feature, but you can still practice with just aiming. The Walther LGM-2 is also a good rifle, and built very well. The Crosman Challenger has received good reviews and seems like a good value.
Where I shoot now a lot of shooters are either using FWB 700's or Walther LG300's. I saw a guy with an Evolution 700 shoot a perfect 100 in standing and match another shooter's score using a LG300 Anatomic to close out a match. In this case it comes down to the shooter.
I currently shoot a LG300xt Alutec for standing only. I don't use most of the adjustments like rotating the pistol grip, turning the cheekpiece out, rotating the buttplate. I've been able to shoot decent scores with minimal adjustments. If my rifle had been offered in a walnut right hand stock I would have probably chosen that instead of the aluminum.
If I was in your place I would consider the Superair 2001 for all of the reasons stated by the other shooters. 14 years later I think that rifle was the best fitting and had the best balance of any I've tried. Some advice I heard in the past was buy the best equipment you can afford. Some equipment you will be able to upgrade in time, but overall its an investment in something you can continue with years from now. Welcome to the sport.

randy1952 wrote: The focus is supposed to be on the front sight and not the barrel. If your using the barrel as part of the focus process then your complicating the process by adding another point for the brain to focus on which takes more energy and time. Keep the process as simple as possible, especially when they are young and just starting out and as they gain more experience you can try adding or experimenting later.

Focusing on the barrel isn't the problem here. The issue is that the further the sight line is from the line the pellet takes, the more difference any error in cant will make. Twice as much height in your sightraisers = twice as large an error in where the barrel's pointing for the same cant mistake.

randy1952 wrote:
The bottom line here is that you use whatever technique and equipment the rules allows and works and try not to let your personal preferences interfere with what works best for the shooter and besides Matt Emmons and a number of other world champions don't seem to have a problem with sight risers or trying out any other new piece of equipment that they think may help them improve their standings.

I'm reasonably sure that Matt Emmons can have for free any piece of equipment he'd like to try. Not an option here. I don't know anyone with FWB sightraisers she could borrow to play with, and other makes won't fit on the rail :(

I'd also suspect that his entire muscle memory and shot process are sufficiently developed that he simply doesn't cant differently from shot to shot.

Levergun59 wrote: Your daughter's body position is probably at 30* or more to the target, i'm guessing.

More like 5* :) I think she's actually an octopus in disguise, or some other strangely shaped beast. But I'll have a look and see if tweaking the angle helps - thanks!

skylark wrote:

randy1952 wrote: The focus is supposed to be on the front sight and not the barrel. If your using the barrel as part of the focus process then your complicating the process by adding another point for the brain to focus on which takes more energy and time. Keep the process as simple as possible, especially when they are young and just starting out and as they gain more experience you can try adding or experimenting later.

Focusing on the barrel isn't the problem here. The issue is that the further the sight line is from the line the pellet takes, the more difference any error in cant will make. Twice as much height in your sightraisers = twice as large an error in where the barrel's pointing for the same cant mistake.

randy1952 wrote:
The bottom line here is that you use whatever technique and equipment the rules allows and works and try not to let your personal preferences interfere with what works best for the shooter and besides Matt Emmons and a number of other world champions don't seem to have a problem with sight risers or trying out any other new piece of equipment that they think may help them improve their standings.

I'm reasonably sure that Matt Emmons can have for free any piece of equipment he'd like to try. Not an option here. I don't know anyone with FWB sightraisers she could borrow to play with, and other makes won't fit on the rail :(

I'd also suspect that his entire muscle memory and shot process are sufficiently developed that he simply doesn't cant differently from shot to shot.

Levergun59 wrote:
I don't know if the emphasis has gone back, but initially when I got into coaching many, many, many, moons ago canting was thought of okay, but after a couple of years the word at the coaches conferences changed to where they discouraged canting as it was very difficult to cant the rifle the same angle every time. Thereafter, I have been teaching the kids not to cant and as long as we start them early there has been no problem. I get some older kids who have been shooting for awhile and are canting, I let those go unless they are willing to retrain themselves. The ones I did retrain had no regrets when they were getting more consistent and higher scores.

The FWB P700s already comes with built on sight riser blocks. However, when the P700 was first introduced they raised the limit for sights shortly after it came out on the market, so the older P700 might need an extra sight riser block to reach the full height. The newer models are adjustable up to the maximum height. The rifle is designed so that there isn't much extra that you have to buy for the rifle.

As far as Matt Emmons, he was just illustrations I have seen many junior shooters using sight riser blocks and this is probably one of the least expensive accessory you can buy for the rifle.

One problem you may have in removing cant from a shooters position is that they may have to tilt their head quite a bit to get a good sight picture thru the sights.

I'd rather have a shooter with ears level and use a set of offsets.

Another issue (especially with some women) is that w/o a cant they may have their rifle sitting against their jacket or chest ... a no-no. A cant (and some stock grinding) may be necessary to get a gap between the rifle & the jacket.

On precision rifles many times you can rotate the front sight barrel to get a set of interior lines parallel with the floor or target background. Smallbore the same or you can put a level on the FS (adjust it for the cant) and teach them to check the lines or bubble as they check their NPA

The MEC Air Rifle Shooting book has a caption over a diagram of front sight: "10 degrees cant moves the shot about 1 ring width. Always in the direction of cant and lower". I use the Centra Score front sight with horizon bars. I shoot only 10m air and cant the rifle just under 20*. The horizon bars help but it has become more muscle memory through a lot of practice. I also use a set of 20mm risers and have been able to achieve very consistant results in the standing position. My coach has evaluated my form over several sessions to check my overall position and helped me to adjust my stock, but I still cant the rifle because it allows for a more comfortable upright head position.

And by now, Dadude is reading all this going, "What, I'm so confused. Risers? what are they?" But... I digress

You mentioned you were in the Hartford area. Hopefully you are OK after hurricane Irene. I have been without power a bit myself.

Anyhow, you noted that you could not find a club in your area. This is something of a problem in the US. The precision shooting sports exist in pockets, if you are near a pocket, great, if not you can be on your own.

Depending on exactly where in Hartford, Deborah Lyman in Wallingford is about 25 miles south of you. In the shooting world, that is close by.

Good Luck,
'Dude

Dadude, I live about 25 minutes from the range I attend. They have a dedicated 10 meter facility but unfortunately they are only open a few days a week and I work a rotating shift. Since I can't always make it there for practice about 95% of my training is done by dry firing. Aiming at a dot on the wall is some of the best training for practicing good follow through and finding natural point of aim. Currently I'm using it to practice my timing for lowering the muzzle/front sights.
There are a lot of good resources available. Launi Meili has a book, Rifle Steps to Success, and the MEC book is a good read. Both books have information on techniques and drills to improve as well as discuss equipment. Besides the books another good resource is this forum. I've benefitted a lot fom reading some of these discussions and most posters are willing to share what they know.
As for the pockets of shooting sports in the States. I would like to see the NRA, CMP, or USA Shooting start a league similar to what the DSB has in Germany with city teams competing against eachother as part of a spectator sport. At one range I sometimes compete at they have ten lanes with electronic scoring and monitors in the lounge so you can track all of the shooters' progress during a match. I'd like to see that catch on in some of the larger metro areas.

Another possibility for home practice if it's a long way to a club (though I wouldn't recommend starting out with it) is a pellet catcher to make your own air range in a suitable room. If you're lucky you can get 10m, but if not then practicing at 6yds is useful too (and has the advantage that you can probably see the pellet holes).

Dry firing is really good for you, but sometimes you want to make some holes :)

Dude'
Thanks, and yeah I am alright. Lost power for about 4 days, no home damage, so not too bad.

I sent the contact you gave me an email, and I am gonna wait a week before I call, some people are still without power, and their is a lot of clean up to do.

As for practice, my basement is 55 ft long, with a bare wall at one side. That was one of the reasons I wanted to get into it so badly, because I knew I had a good place to practice.

Thanks again,

Jon

Hi guys,
I realize that this thread is almost a year resting.

Just wanted to see if Dadude was able to find a club in CT.
I'm in the same situation, want to start out with serious Air rifle shooting but can't seem to find anyone locally that I could shadow.
We don't even have stores in our area that deal in competition air rifles
I'm fairly close to the Wallingford Range where I stopped by last weekend.
The lady at the office there was not really able to help me (nor did she seemed overly interested in helping me).

Before I'm going to spend some serious money I would love to at least hold a rifle :)

Oh well, anyways, Jon if you see this please let me know how the search went for you.

Cheers,
Volker