TargetTalk

I agree with the fact that the ISSF will likely only have a token say in what happens anyways. The most likely scenario is the IOC will say we want to drop shooting, they will give the excuse about expense of venues most likely. The ISSF in hopes of hanging on will try appeasement and say we will go to lasers. If they accept, the sport will languish then be dropped.

Take a look at the Winter Olympics, they are moving to the X Games format. The IOC longs after the money, the TV dollars and sponsorship that events like the X-games have. That said look at figure skating, and dancing with the stars they create a soap opera drama with the bull crap judging. I hope I'm wrong but I fear that is where the Olympics is going.

These people really don't care about history or sport, it's a business and they are interested in a big bottom line. They are providing an entertainment spectacle.

Richard H wrote:I agreed with you David my original statement was incorrect, so you can dance a little jig or make a little note.

David are you unaware the the IOC actually works with the ISSF and the international governing bodies of all the sports, or do you just want to be obtuse and pick fights with me. If thats the case fine just let me know so I can participate in the appropriate activity.

No I don't want to pick fights with you Richard. If anyone posts something which I know to be wrong, or for which I doubt that they have any evidence, then I will point it out.

Richard H wrote:Where are the clothing rules, blinder rules, rifle pants and walking rules coming from, if they aren't coming from the IOC through the ISSF considering that is the justification that the ISSF gives themselves.

I'll spell out what I wrote for you, you seem to want to play daft.

The IOC doesn't like the pig so they tell the ISSF if you want to keep it in the Olympics you drop the pig, guess what the pig is dropped, the IOC says make it an air event if you want to keep it in the Olympics, guess what happens they turn it into 10m Running Target, the the IOC says no one does this sport or watches it we are dropping it.

I am not aware that I argued with any of that, apart from your repeated incorrect assertion that the ISSF have dropped the pig.

You say "I'll spell out what I wrote for you...", and then write something different. If your story is true about who-said-what regarding RT then at least it kept the 50m pig in the Olympics for another 2 cycles after the 10m RT was introduced by the ISSF. The 10m event was in the Olympics for a further 4 cycles.

It is the IOC who say which events will be in the Olympics, not the ISSF.

That said look at figure skating, and dancing with the stars they create a soap opera drama with the bull crap judging.

Presume you're aware that ballroom dancing is being pushed hard as an "Olympic sport" (for the summer games, presumably for the same audience as watch Ice Dancing).

peterz wrote:Nevertheless, the ISSF has kept it in the World Championships, so presumably somebody still participates. And presumably the ISSF doesn't want to become the ILSF.

Not only is RT still in the World Championships but, with the introduction of the Medal Match (section 10.12 of the ISSF rules), they have come up with an exciting (and quick) final format. Decimal scoring means that superior accuracy will still win but the points allocation make it easy for the uninitiated to follow and enjoy.

I am glad too!

ZD wrote:What an absolute shame. Lasers are supposed to be used for training aids, not actual shooting. As for cost? Air and pellets are extremely cheap, as a tin of finale match or R-10 runs about 10 to 12 dollars, while a brick of tenex runs upwards of 180 dollars. Whats next, are we as rifle shooters (and pistol shooters as well) going to have to compete with systems such as Scatt or Noptel or Rika? I forget how cheap they are. And I wonder how accurate of a system these lasers will be? Or maybe the mental impact the athletes will have when they no longer are allowed to actually shoot. Might as well turn it into a video game. I forget how many shooters have a violent impulse to turn on the crowd and shoot them with a single loader firearm. Shooting is just so dangerous, wonder how many injuries have happened compared to the safety of running, swimming, cycling, ect. One more victory to the anti gun morons in England. Glad I live in the U.S, but I'm sure this great idea will pass overseas to the United States.

What I know of why they r moving modern pentathlon to laser shooting is because the shooting event is combined with running, so they will run & shoot simultaneously. So keeping this in same location, laser will be the safest option, beside they do not look for score, just shots within the black circle are counted.

I have read all your messages, and noted your concerns.
I, personally, do not support the idea of laser guns. However, the sport has been ruined by the money, and TV. I am an ex-modern pentathlete with 30 years competing, so I do have some knowledge of the sport.

Squeezing a 5 day competition into One day Only is ridiculous!
Changing the shooting from a .22 shorts, then .22 longs, and then new format targets, and now Air Pistol laser guns is a nonsense. However, if the sport wants to survive it has to adapt to new ideas, such as the show jumping instead of the Cross country that we did in my day!

It looks like it will finish up like Biathlon shooting, - just hit the target for 10 points!
I hope this daft laser idea does not filter through to ISSF!!
If we don't talk about it, the silent majority might lose out, and this crazy idea might be taken on board by the 'Powers That Be'! Remember what happened to R/F shorts event. How many of you have your old .22 shorts pistol still stuck in your safe, with no match to use it (nor any ammo).
Make sure your country representatives know your feelings.

Alex L.

Heba wrote:What I know of why they r moving modern pentathlon to laser shooting is because the shooting event is combined with running, so they will run & shoot simultaneously. So keeping this in same location, laser will be the safest option, beside they do not look for score, just shots within the black circle are counted.

Why is laser safest? Air pistol or even cartridge pistol is perfectly safe provided the venue and range area are properly laid out. When was the last time anyone was endangered or hurt in Biathlon (where they use .22lr rifles)?

The biathlon-style format in no way precludes the use of free-projectile firearms. The Scouts in the UK use it (run/shoot with air rifles), Biathlon has used it for decades without issue, it was successfully introduced to Pentathlon.

If you want it to be spectator friendly, then electronic systems can be procured like the systems used in Biathlon to detect for the TV screens which targets have gone down and also to log how many shots the featured competitor has fired and has remaining, feeding directly back to scoreboards and the penalty box marshalls. It doesn't need to be a laser system to feed back into a computer scoring system. Electronic systems to detect pellet/bullet strike are widely available.

The difference is however that small clubs or groups who can't afford electronic scoring systems can currently make do with paper or mechanical targets as appropriate. Under the new regime they will be forced to buy electronic targets which will be compatible with the laser pistols, costing many thousands of pounds to fit out even a modest range.

There has never and will never be a safety issue using air pistols or cartridge pistols.

It's not about being "safest" its about being safe for little money. I really can't see why this is so hard to fathom. If you'r not shooting projectiles then you can just about do it anywhere without build a range which costs lots of money.

I think it sucks but I can see the attractiveness to organizers especially those that organize multi-sport events.

But air ranges don't cost a lot of money *confused*
You can set one up with a very basic wooden framework and bed sheets, hay bales or the tough netting used for paintball and airsoft.
These are more than adequate for use in public places like fairgrounds, shopping malls, etc. Given that the shooting in Pentathlon is now integrated into the running, you don't even need a building. Biathlon ranges are some of the most basic rangesyou will come across. For air pistol, you set up with an earthen bank, the wall of a building, or even just a long sheet of netting behind the targetry, mark your firing point and you're good to go. It's about as simple, transferrable and versatile as ranges get. You can use any old hall, open space, building wall as a backstop. No need for sandy or steel backstops like for cartridge.

Any sort of range is going to have a backing sheet anyway because the shooters ideally want a plain background to shoot at - not a crowd milling around - and people don't want to look over the shoulder and see a gun pointed at them - laser or not - between the targets.
In light of the fact you're going to have a backing screen anyway, there is literally no difference in laser or air pistol set ups.

A range constructed to use laser pistol will be even cheaper than one for air pistols in material, setup and storage.

If it is in circular venue like a stadium, all you need is a lightweight cloth as a back drop and you don't even need to stop use behind the target line.

We have a 80 position portable range that we use, we need to store it in a couple of sea cans, those sea cans need to be stored and transported to the venues, thats not all free.

Yes and air range is easier and cheaper than a firearms range, but that said a range for lasers is even cheaper still.

Richard H wrote:Yes and air range is easier and cheaper than a firearms range, but that said a range for lasers is even cheaper still.

No, it's not; you need to factor in the cost of the targets. With lasers you have no option but electronic targets; with air pistol, you can use paper.

an electronic target like haring sius and other costs about 2000 dollars per position. i dont expect these new laser targets to cost less. although they are much more portable (from a backstop view) my guess is that small clubs will not be able to upgrade their ranges to this targets.

Sparks wrote:With lasers you have no option but electronic targets; with air pistol, you can use paper.

Not really. Modern Pentathlon uses hit/miss targets and really needs instant feedback for the shooter. Mechanical "knock-down" targets are currently OK.

You guys keep saying it should just stay the same because that's the way its always been. See how that works out.

To sit here and pretend that there are no benefits to lasers is pretty silly.

For starters I figured most of you could have figured out on your own that I was talking about high level events (when I said multi-sport events), which of course would have been shot on electronic targets to start with. There are even advantages over electronic target for one no consumables, and you'd be removing the most common source of target malfunction, the little black paper roll.

If you want to fight the implementation of lasers I suggest you come up with some advantages that air arms have over the lasers.

I'm by no means a supporter of lasers but I can step outside and see the draw, remember these people are not at all interested in the sport or its history, they want to put on a successful games, which means maximizing profits.

The Laser folks have sold them this technology so calling it and them stupid isn't going to change anything.

Also even Pentathlon minor events are still at this time shot with air pistols. The pistol are still functioning air pistols too so they can use lasers, electronic, paper or knock down targets.

ghostrip wrote:an electronic target like haring sius and other costs about 2000 dollars per position. i dont expect these new laser targets to cost less. although they are much more portable (from a backstop view) my guess is that small clubs will not be able to upgrade their ranges to this targets.

Why would small clubs need them?

Many small shooting clubs to this day still don't have electronic targets to this day.

Sparks wrote:

Richard H wrote:Yes and air range is easier and cheaper than a firearms range, but that said a range for lasers is even cheaper still.

No, it's not; you need to factor in the cost of the targets. With lasers you have no option but electronic targets; with air pistol, you can use paper.

Sparks are you not aware what we are talking about, its lasers in Modern Pentathlon. They use reactive targets that run close to a grand now.

There seems to be a lot of the sky is falling in this discussion. Just because they adopt something at the elite levels of a sport doesn't mean that it will trickle down tomorrow.

Richard H wrote: Why would small clubs need them?

Many small shooting clubs to this day still don't have electronic targets to this day.

Yes, but you're comparing live-fire electronic targets to laser-gun electronic targets.

Shooting clubs use live fire or air guns. You can use either an electronic system to evaluate the fall of shot, or a paper target.

If your gun is firing laser beams, it's electronic or nothing.
They're clearly trying to push dedicated laser guns onto people, as they are offering these in addition to conversion kits. Sooner or later they will probably stop ffering conversion kits and clubs will have no choice but to go electronic.

This is not like regular shooting. As long as you're shooting a physical projectile, it doesn't matter what target system is at the far end. Grassroots can use paper, national ranges can use electronics.

Which brings us to the next point - are you expecting people to maintain an air gun for local comps and a laser gun for higher level events? In the very beginning, people can get away with taking the conversion kits off, but then you have to train separately for air and laser events, because the guns WILL behave differently in the live and laser configurations.

Furthermore, people who go on to buy dedicated laser guns are then tied into a single target system. Clubs will HAVE to accommodate them, and they wont be able to train at home unless they cough up for a personal electronic target.
You'll get into a ridiculous situation where not everyone can do any competition because some people have a laser gun and some have an airgun, and the event doesn't support their technology.


If you're firing laser beams, it's not a matter of technology trickling down, it's a matter of instant, wholesale change. There is one system and one system only that will detect the shot, and that's electronic.

Richard H wrote:A range constructed to use laser pistol will be even cheaper than one for air pistols in material, setup and storage.

If it is in circular venue like a stadium, all you need is a lightweight cloth as a back drop and you don't even need to stop use behind the target line.

An air range can be set up with a fairly lightweight cloth backdrop. Ive seen it done dozens of times at fairgrounds and to preserve the internal walls of multi-sport halls that are configured for shooting maybe one night a week.
In both cases, you've got:
(1) a fabric backdrop
(2) the range area itself cordoned off

There is NO difference in air or laser ranges! You can have people use the area behind air range backstops perfectly safely.

Richard H wrote: Yes and air range is easier and cheaper than a firearms range, but that said a range for lasers is even cheaper still.

A range for lasers MUST use electronic targetry. At $1-2k+ a pop, that's a hell of a lot of capital expenditure. Sure it might earn it's keep back over a matter of years in the recouped cost of expendables, but it's a matter of finding the initial set-up. You say you have an 80 point range. Do you have $80-$160k to burn on replacing your current, perfectly good targetry?

Also, you mention black rubber rolls - you are aware are yu not that the latest generation of electronic targetry uses lasers and optical systems to detect fall-of-shot, not acoustic systems. AFAIK, there are no consumables apart from electricity. They would be no more expensive to run than the proposed laser-sensitive targetry, but support live fire.


If you want the advantage of air over lasers, I would give you two easy ones:

1. Airguns can be safely used anywhere that laser guns can be safely used. The safety issue is a fiction invented to add extra weight to the argument.

2. Airguns can be shot at home; in multi-sport halls, on dedicated ranges at paper; knock-down targets or electronics (whether scoring rings or hit/miss) as availability dictates. They don't require a power supply for the targetry. i.e. they can be used anywhere.
Laser guns can only be shot at electronic targetry that is turned on.

The sport should not and is not standing still. It's gone from scoring rings to a hit-miss Biathlon-style final which is much more media friendly. They've adapted in order to bring a clear and apparent benefit to the sport and it's media coverage.
Progress for the sake of progress however is pointless. This system restricts the events people can enter if they have a laser-only gun, or don't have a conversion kit for their air gun, it places a financial burden on small clubs to upgrade their targetry, and all for no appreciable benefit in either spectator experience or safety.

Hemmers your right go lead the charge.

Laser safety is an issue that no one has mentioned yet - what is the power of the laser, and what eyewear will be required? There are basic safety issues that appear to be similar with projectiles and lasers: ie - no one should be at the receiving end. Therefore, use of the area downrange beyond the backstop is the same.