TargetTalk

Ed-WI wrote:

What is the velocity the different weight pellets leave the barrel at?
Are any of them approaching speed of sound?

3-P Air Rifle rules state that 600 fps is the max. Speed of sound is roughly 1100+ fps. So you'd have to have one of those really fast "hunting/plinking" rifles as well as very light pellets to go near that fast

Keep in mind that even the smallbore rifle shooters use "standard velocity" ammo that is about 1080 fps to stay away from trans-sonic shock effects on the projectile.

Hello FKW, I would dismiss any accuracy testing of these two ARs that is not done from a vised platform.

The very nice groups (off a dead shot bag and rear rest) produced by my Challenger 2009 pellet testing sessions were entirely repeatable, so you ignore that information at your own peril.

Both the next pics were four-shot groups with R10 lights.





The R10 heavies grouped *almost* as well, and pretty much every target on both pages (10 total) looked good enough to suggest the rifle is very accurate.

I'd be hesitant to dismiss a gun based on less-than-perfect shooting conditions, but when these results are repeatable with a rifle, it's hard to imagine ignoring them.

Hi TC, I still do dismiss your results as indicative of your Crosman. They do not
show what your AR is truely capable of. Your target tells me that your are a very
capable shooter...not your air rifle. In a vise your Challenger may actually
print smaller groups or possibly even larger groups. I hope you understand what
I am trying to say here.

Tony G

Sorry no photographic evidence but I am getting pretty good groups with the edge. Best grouping of 5 using vogel practice pellets of a bag at 10 meters looked like one round hole a little bigger than a pellet. Meisters and RWS wadcutters were not as good, gamo match a little worse than meisters.

I did loosen and then tightened down all the barrel grub screws. Pulled a few cleaning and dry patches through.

I am no seasoned 10m shooter but I like the ergonomics and the sights on the edge. Very happy with mine.

TCW,

Your groups look like my groups. It's all that I can ask from a rifle. The rest is up to the shooter.

BTW, the best rifle for one shooter may not be the best for another. Since sporter rules are so restrictive, sometimes it comes down to what rifle fits you better so that you can use all of its capability.

Analagous to the old Porshe Carreras and Lotus race cars of the 1970's. The Carreras were wicked fast but were a handful to drive because of the rear weight bias. The Louts' were down on power but had superior handling. Either car could win depending on the driver and what he was capable of getting out of the car for a given race track.

Likewise, a "100 point" rifle like the Challenger or 887 is only meaningful if the shooter can take advantage of that potential. If the shooter is only capable of using 90% of that potential, then they can get beat by shooter with a "95 point" rifle that can wring out every bit of that performance.


To Tony G,

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say. I don't believe that you can judge the true performance of a rifle by mounting it in a vise. A vise represents the ultimate stiff hold. Some rifles, because of their harmonics, prefer a softer hold to get their best performance. As an easy example, many springer air rifles are often sensitive to how tightly or loosely they are held when shooting. This might be the case with the Edge. However, in tests that I've witnessed or conducted myself, the Edge didn't approach the accuracy of the 887 or CH2009 whether held in the stiff hold of being clamped in a vise or the soft hold of being cradled in a sandbag on a bench.

At the very least, Gaylord's data show that the Edge is highly sensitive to pellet selection.

I realize that many of the top rifle manufacturers test their rifle actions before final assembly by shooting then from a vise. While the results can be useful, I don't think they are definitive as to whether they can be shot well in position. If I missed the point of your post, my apologies.

What continues to amaze me is that there are now available relatively affordable sporter rifles that have the ability to shoot groups that were once the domain of only very high dollar German or European imports. It is incredible to find that some of today's sporter rifles have similar performance at a fraction of the cost.

This may not mean anything other than most of your kids are going to be better shots than I am. I show a comparison with a Walther LG300 which I know will shoot a one hole group (.020 CTC.) I used a scope mounted on each rifle to give me the best precision. I tried to lock the guns in a plastic cleaning vice. Shot indoors (the wife was out.)

Walther LG-300 Crosman Challenger Air Force Edge
Daisy Wadcutter .420 CTC .409 CTC .762 CTC
RWS Hobby .197 CTC .244 CTC .564 CTC
Vogel (4.49) .175 CTC .132 CTC .302 CTC
Crosman .352 CTC .483 CTC .547 CTC
RWS R-10 .155 CTC .220 CTC .222 CTC

There it is for what it's worth. Same shooter, same pellets, and the same setup. Note that I actually shot a better group with the Challenger than the Walther.

I also decline to shoot a match against any of your kids :)