TargetTalk

David Levene wrote:Just to set the facts straight, at least for the UK, the increase in violent crime has nothing to do with the banning of cartridge pistols. It is pure coincidence ...

The tobacco companies used the same argument for over 50 years in the face of overwhelming statistical evidence that smoking causes cancer.

If you want statistical evidence, look to the work of John Lott. His original study on crime and gun control used 15 years worth of crime data from every county in the U.S. It involved over 54,000 data points, several hundred variables and more than 10,000 regressions. His work has been endorsed by 3 Nobel Prize winning economists. Since he did his original study, he has augmented it with crime data from more recent years, which has only strengthened his conclusions.

What's been happening in the UK may be a coincidence, but it's a highly correlated one.

Can none of your seriously say that there is one thing wrong with the gun laws in the US? That nothing is even remotely too lax?

I mean, an example I can think of is a friend of mine in the US who has a gun just sitting in a draw in her bed side table. That is just mind boggling to me, anyone can get access to it. It doesn't surprise me in the least when I see yet another report of some little kid finding their parent's gun and accidentally shooting themself when people can just leave guns around the house.

I have to keep my gun locked in a steel cabinet that is internally hinged and bolted to two anchor points (I think this is a little overkill though, it is a pain in the arse but I understand the logic behind it), with the ammunition in a seperately locked compartment. It is safe and my little nephew is definitely not going to be getting into that sucker.

Thinking that you need quick access to a loaded gun in your house to "protect you from the bad guys" is rediculously paranoid.

Do people not even think is a good idea to lock your gun up? Do you seriously believe that if by some amazing chance some person sneaks into your house, with the specific intent to harm you for some reason, that you would even be able to get to your gun?

Surely people here who have been around guns for years can see some room for improvement.

And by the way. I am a grown adult. I am not trolling but I knew my vews on gun laws (which are quite different to a lot of gun owners) would get a rise out of people on here. I know how emotional people can get about their guns, especially in the US.

It's late, I'm bored.... sorry if it has made anyone angry.

methosb wrote:Can none of your seriously say that there is one thing wrong with the gun laws in the US? That nothing is even remotely too lax?

I mean, an example I can think of is a friend of mine in the US who has a gun just sitting in a draw in her bed side table. That is just mind boggling to me, anyone can get access to it. It doesn't surprise me in the least when I see yet another report of some little kid finding their parent's gun and accidentally shooting themself when people can just leave guns around the house.

The data from the CDC website indicates that there are about 40 to 50 accidental shootings of children under the age of 10 in the U.S. each year. Of these, you can count on one hand the number of incidents where a child accidentally shot himself or another child. Almost all of these accidental shootings are done by irresponsible adults.

Having a loaded gun in the house has benefits as well as costs. Of course, the costs are accidental shootings of children. The benefits are thousands of lives and many of millions of dollars in property losses saved each year as a result of homeowners successfully defending themselves in their homes.

Washington D.C. has a law, which is currently under appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, banning people from keeping guns in their homes unless they are dismantled and locked up. Since this law went into effect more than 30 years ago, the violent crime rate in Washington D.C. has been climbing steadily. The violent crime rate in D.C. is now worse than any of the 50 states.

Since gun bans went into effect in the UK and Canada, the burglary rate in both countries has soared. It is substantially higher in both countries than in the U.S. Even worse, the percentage of 'hot' burglaries, i.e., where someone is home when the burglary happens, is well over 50 percent in the UK and Canada, vs. the U.S., where it is less than 13 percent. In the U.S., burglars spend considerably more time casing a target residence to make sure that no one is home, for the simple reason that they don't want to get shot.

No one can get access to your friend's gun unless they first get access to her bedroom. If she's home, it allows her to protect herself from someone gaining unauthorized access to her bedroom, as well as all of the bad things that can happen to her in such circumstances.

methosb wrote:Can none of your seriously say that there is one thing wrong with the gun laws in the US? That nothing is even remotely too lax?

I mean, an example I can think of is a friend of mine in the US who has a gun just sitting in a draw in her bed side table. That is just mind boggling to me, anyone can get access to it. It doesn't surprise me in the least when I see yet another report of some little kid finding their parent's gun and accidentally shooting themself when people can just leave guns around the house.

I have to keep my gun locked in a steel cabinet that is internally hinged and bolted to two anchor points (I think this is a little overkill though, it is a pain in the arse but I understand the logic behind it), with the ammunition in a seperately locked compartment. It is safe and my little nephew is definitely not going to be getting into that sucker.

Thinking that you need quick access to a loaded gun in your house to "protect you from the bad guys" is rediculously paranoid.

Do people not even think is a good idea to lock your gun up? Do you seriously believe that if by some amazing chance some person sneaks into your house, with the specific intent to harm you for some reason, that you would even be able to get to your gun?

Surely people here who have been around guns for years can see some room for improvement.

Our gun laws are not lax enough. Period. Their only purpose is to leave the law abiding defenseless.

You are a sheep. Plain and simple.

You think crime doesn't happen to you. You think that you cannot fight criminals. You think that one can not find the training, skill, and fortitude to prevail in a violent confrontation unless they are a "highly trained" cop or a thug.

You think that preparing for an event that, as unliklely it may be, will have devastating consequences if you are unprepared is paranoid.

You think that children cannot be taught that firearms are normal, yet must be left alone since they are only for adults. You think children are too stupid to understand that and that they will not obey their parents, therefore the government must step in to protect them.

Go back to your fantasy land and your false sense of security. We do not care, once again, what you think of our laws. They are ours, therefore they are of no concern to you. Just like Australian law is no concern of mine. If you do not like our gun culture, do not visit our country. Simple enough, really.

methosb wrote: Thinking that you need quick access to a loaded gun in your house to "protect you from the bad guys" is rediculously paranoid.

http://www.cbs58.com/index.php?aid=1755

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... /803140409

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22528385

http://www.guardonline.com/?q=node/44275

http://www.wnep.com/global/story.asp?s=7859237

Yep, it's all in our heads.

methosb wrote:Do you seriously believe that if by some amazing chance some person sneaks into your house, with the specific intent to harm you for some reason, that you would even be able to get to your gun?

When you have an intrusion alarm system, a dog that will bark like crazy at an intruder, and this:



Yes, no doubt in my mind.

http://www.the-backup.com/buy/commercial.php

Like they say in the ad: "Buy one for each side of the bed".

I'm glad that where I live, the closest thing to a crime wave we get is when a few windows are broken on a Saturday night.

Hey methosb, just to show you how paranoid we are, there are organizations like this: http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com ... stom&ID=10 that help train regular joes like me to stand on their feet and win.

More paranoia, what?

bruce wrote:I'm glad that where I live, the closest thing to a crime wave we get is when a few windows are broken on a Saturday night.

I'm 42 years old and I have never been the victim of violent crime. Statiscally, I will never be either.

But I am not about to trust my security, nor that of my family, to statistics. And much less to the government.

bruce wrote:I'm glad that where I live, the closest thing to a crime wave we get is when a few windows are broken on a Saturday night.

A Google search (violent crime statistics scotland) turned up the following article, among others:

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryfor ... -3292.aspx

Congratulations! Scotland, as part of the UK, has overtaken Australia for having the worst violent crime rate.

I was going to comment but it's obvious he is either a troll or a socialist.

It's not worth my effort. You can't help those who won't help themselves.

alb wrote:Since gun bans went into effect in the UK and Canada, the burglary rate in both countries has soared.

I say again, at least for the UK that is pure coincidence.

You might have an arguement if you could show that there was a history of legally held pistols being used for self defence in such circumstances. I obviously cannot say it has never happened but, since I became interested in pistol shooting in 1980, I can honestly say that I cannot remember such a case.

Remember that, except for extremely rare cases (which I have heard of but never knowingly encountered), firearm certificates were only granted for sporting use. Those certificates invariably had storage conditions requiring pistols and ammunition to be kept in separate locked cabinets. Hardly a convenient tool for use against a burglar.

David Levene wrote:

alb wrote:Since gun bans went into effect in the UK and Canada, the burglary rate in both countries has soared.

I say again, at least for the UK that is pure coincidence.

You might have an arguement if you could show that there was a history of legally held pistols being used for self defence in such circumstances. I obviously cannot say it has never happened but, since I became interested in pistol shooting in 1980, I can honestly say that I cannot remember such a case.

Remember that, except for extremely rare cases (which I have heard of but never knowingly encountered), firearm certificates were only granted for sporting use. Those certificates invariably had storage conditions requiring pistols and ammunition to be kept in separate locked cabinets. Hardly a convenient tool for use against a burglar.

Another feel good socialist... ***Sigh***

Jose Rossy wrote:

bruce wrote:I'm glad that where I live, the closest thing to a crime wave we get is when a few windows are broken on a Saturday night.

I'm 42 years old and I have never been the victim of violent crime. Statiscally, I will never be either.

But I am not about to trust my security, nor that of my family, to statistics. And much less to the government.

Jose,

Violent crimes only happen to other people. And, if you have any luck at all, you can live your whole life without becomming one of those other people.

Unfortunately, I've been the victim of two violent crimes -- an armed robbery and a road-rage attack. This doesn't include the times I've been attacked by dogs, stalked on the streets or in the woods, road-rage incidents that didn't end in violence, the times that I've been hassled/interviewed by bums on the street, or the time that some guy came at me with a chain saw but no charges were filed. My mother was also the victim of a 'hot' burglary, and she was once the victim of a traffic stop by a phony policeman.

Oh, by the way, I live in a good neighborhood, and so did my mother.

I've can say from personal experience, should you ever find yourself facing a violent, armed criminal, and you're as amp'ed up on adrenaline as you will ever be in your entire life, and the thought suddenly hits you, "Gee, I may very well die in the next few seconds, and there's nothing I can do about it. I'm simply not prepared for this situation, thanks to my own stupidity and shortsightedness." It's a real epiphany.

alb wrote: I've can say from personal experience, should you ever find yourself facing a violent, armed criminal, and you're as amp'ed up on adrenaline as you will ever be in your entire life, and the thought suddenly hits you, "Gee, I may very well die in the next few seconds, and there's nothing I can do about it. I'm simply not prepared for this situation, thanks to my own stupidity and shortsightedness." It's a real epiphany.

Al, I agree. Not having seen the elephant as you have, all I can do is try to stack the odds in my favor by training and practicing as much as I can and as realistically as I can.

You think we're paranoid, huh? Ok. Maybe you think you're a big, tough guy, & nothing bad will happen to you. I wonder if you have any women in your life that you care about. If you do, you should want her to have a way to protect herself from the bad guys.

If you don't want to have "big, scary, mean looking guns", DON'T. I have the RIGHT to have as many guns as I want, & to CARRY them if I so choose. As a woman, I feel that a gun, & the training that I have, gives me more freedom. I can defend myself, my dependents, & my property. I do also like & participate in shooting sports, but that is not the basis for our 2nd Ammendment rights. The many video clips that I've seen of people like you in the UK & Australia TURNING IN THEIR GUNS is disgusting. It'll NEVER happen here.

I hope you stay safe, despite your best efforts not to.

Derek wrote:Another feel good socialist... ***Sigh***

Not at all. I just believe that if you claim that banning something causes an increase in something else then you must be able to show that they are linked. In this case that would mean showing that legally held pistols had an effect on violent crime in the UK. Similar evidence may exist for areas where guns can be held for self defence, but that was not generally the case here.

Without being able to provide such evidence, and I would be interested to see it if it exists, you might just as well say that banning pistols in the UK is causing the Antarctic ice to melt.

David Levene wrote:

alb wrote:Since gun bans went into effect in the UK and Canada, the burglary rate in both countries has soared.

I say again, at least for the UK that is pure coincidence.

You might have an arguement if you could show that there was a history of legally held pistols being used for self defence in such circumstances. I obviously cannot say it has never happened but, since I became interested in pistol shooting in 1980, I can honestly say that I cannot remember such a case.

At least 14 separate studies done by such groups as the Gallup organization, among others, estimated that there are somewhere between 750,000 and 3,500,000 defensive gun uses per year in the U.S. The vast majority of these do not result in shots being fired, and only a small fraction are reported to the police since the crime was stopped without injury or loss of property.

The UK's crime rate has been climbing steadily since 1968, when your government started instituting gun control measures, and has skyrocketed since the gun ban in the late 1990's.

Every month the NRA publishes a half-dozen stories of defensive gun uses in their magazine. There are also a number of websites devoted to this as well, if you'd care to look for them. Personally, I prefer cold, dry statistical data to anecdotal evidence.

Of course, the UK is the place where the Tony Martin incident occurred:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent. ... mar20.html

You're absolutely correct, though. A locked and inaccessible gun isn't much use against a burglar.

As far as what is happening in the UK being a coincidence, there is a whole pile of statistical data that you are ignoring that suggests that it isn't.