TargetTalk

I had some brief conversations with some representatives from companies in Europe and for the most part there is kind of a snobbish attitude toward the American Market. When I was talking to the rep from Anschutz the attitude really stood out. I asked if they would consider moving some of there production to America and his answer was that they wouldn't be able to build quality products her in the US. If they built their products in the US then there products would be more affordable. I told him that if the company wanted a quality product built in the US they can build a quality product in the US.

If it was true that we can't build a quality product then why is Honda and Toyota building there cars in the US. The comments from Honda and Toyota after a few years of producing cars in the US was that the quality was as good and some cases better then cars coming for Japan and that company layed out policies that supported a quality program. I think Zeiss has moved some of there production here in the country and you can't tell the difference between the products from Germany or the US. The only difference was the lower price.

I also got the feeling that the US market wasn't that important to them and from there prospective since we are such a small portion of their total market that we aren't that important. This feeling was further reinforced when I talked to somebody that had supposedly went to there facility in Germany and he informed me that they had quality rejection rates as high as 25%. However, that rejection rate was only towards the products going to there European customers. The products going to the US didn't receive the same kind of quality controls. I had to believe some of this when I received a new 1912 this summer. When I tried to shot groups with the rifle it had a horrible time producing any respectable groups. I had a gunsmith look at the rifle and he discovered that the crown muzzle had burrs. He fixed the crown and know it shots beautifully.

Customer service in Europe is a hit and miss proposition. There have times when I have received great response (very few) and other times I have been totally ignored. I can't blame just the Europeans for their attitude because American companies have displayed some of the same attitudes when they were the main dominate market producers. The American auto industry was a great example of that attitude and know that they are struggling because they had that take it or leave it attitude, especially during the 1970s when there quality was at it's lowest point.

There is an opportunity for some American companies to take advantage of but they are have the same attitude that I mentioned about the Europeans in that the market is to small so they are willing to give up that market share to somebody else, which is the same reason why the Japanese made a fortunate producing VCR even though it was an American invention. The American auto companies gave up on designing small cars and let there competitors overseas just take the market. The cars they did produce had there engines designed and produced by there competitors.

"The products going to the US didn't receive the same kind of quality controls. I had to believe some of this when I received a new 1912 this summer. When I tried to shot groups with the rifle it had a horrible time producing any respectable groups. I had a gunsmith look at the rifle and he discovered that the crown muzzle had burrs. He fixed the crown and know it shots beautifully. "
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So, how does this relate to "low quality" ammo for the US market?

Maybe I'm out on really deep water here but my feeling is that the US market is at least 95% "plinking" when it comes to .22lr ammunition. And here in Europe it's almost(?) the other way around.

Perhaps, Randy, the Europeans' attitude to the Americans has something to do with the marginal standards of literacy they must be faced with. It must be difficult for them, having learned English, to communicate with a nation using a bastardized form of the language.

English Toff wrote:Perhaps, Randy, the Europeans' attitude to the Americans has something to do with the marginal standards of literacy they must be faced with. It must be difficult for them, having learned English, to communicate with a nation using a bastardized form of the language.

At least most Americans remember their name. You forgot the "Pompous" (and probably other adjectives) at the start of yours.

First a harsh fact:
Both Honda and Toyota assemble in the UK, the US and elsewhere, they do this not because of the local skilled labour, nor the low cost labour but to circumvent barriers to trade erected by the EU, the US and many other countries, they also do this for simple economics of relative taxation, shipping/transport and remanufacturing costs.

Ammunition manufacturers and specialist “Olympic” style firearms manufacturers struggle to thrive in a relatively stagnant market punctuated with low volume sales, the recent exception being the far eastern countries with exceptional development programmes for talent identification and production of world class athletes. These are still niche markets.

Having been fortunate to see in some detail the production and quality control of both Eley rimfire (UK) and Lapua (Finland) the are interesting similarities and differences between the two, however, uniformly, their respect for the serious target shooters desire for consistence and reliability is very clear. Whilst some may have experienced a distributors attitude as inappropriate, this is far divorced from the people who manufacturer the products. I am sure that if you reported to either factory your dissatisfaction with their product, stating the batch and description of the issue, you would receive a prompt and courteous reply.

Mellberg makes a good point. Eley for example supplies more .22 rimfire to Switzerland that consumed in the UK where it is manufactured! Some of the training brands are specific to domestic and others specific to the Swiss market. However when making price comparisons, like for like needs to be compared and the specific products are clearly a reflection on local demand.

Enjoy your shooting…..

I thought the pomposity was implicit in the nom de plume I chose. Shame on you Mr Levene for not recognising an English wind-up. You demeane yourself by resorting to personal insult. BTW, do you approve of the mangling of the English language or execrable standards of grammar and spelling about which I commented?

I really do wish "guests" had "read only" privileges.

Yes membership does promote civility, it tends to keep the pompous windbags from darkening our doorstep.

English Tosser, sorry I mean Toff, last I checked "demeane" (sic) didn't have an "e" on the end you pretentious windbag.

As a rule I have found it best not to feed Trolls.

Rutty

Rutty wrote:As a rule I have found it best not to feed Trolls.

I couldn't agree more with that sentiment Rutty.

I just wanted to ensure that the first response was from an Englishman.

You really are so easily wound up aren't you? Ha ha ha ha!

Sorry about my typo: actually, I can spell many more difficult words.

It's a pity that, when feeling threatened, rather than addressing the point, so many resorted to aggressive, loud-mouthed personal insults (also evident in the MG2 threads). Perhaps that's the reason for the europeans' attitude. Good manners go down well in Europe.

I couldn't resist dangling the bait. Life is too short to take offence so readily. Ta-ta!

Like I said, ......I sure do wish that "guests" had "read-only" rights.

English Toff wrote:You really are so easily wound up aren't you? Ha ha ha ha!

Sorry about my typo: actually, I can spell many more difficult words.

It's a pity that, when feeling threatened, rather than addressing the point, so many resorted to aggressive, loud-mouthed personal insults (also evident in the MG2 threads). Perhaps that's the reason for the europeans' attitude. Good manners go down well in Europe.

I couldn't resist dangling the bait. Life is too short to take offence so readily. Ta-ta!

I guess only an Englishman would find 'pompous windbag' to be 'an aggressive, loud-mouthed personal insult'. I would be happy to provide you with some examples of U.S. style insults, but I have better things to do with my time.

English Toff wrote: rather than addressing the point, so many resorted to aggressive, loud-mouthed personal insults

You mean like criticizing someone's spelling and grammar when they are utterly irrelevant to the discussion?

English Toff wrote:You really are so easily wound up aren't you? Ha ha ha ha!

Sorry about my typo: actually, I can spell many more difficult words.

It's a pity that, when feeling threatened, rather than addressing the point, so many resorted to aggressive, loud-mouthed personal insults (also evident in the MG2 threads). Perhaps that's the reason for the europeans' attitude. Good manners go down well in Europe.

I couldn't resist dangling the bait. Life is too short to take offence so readily. Ta-ta!

Who's wound up? Spending 2 seconds to respond to the likes of you is not that big of a deal, and I personally don't get "wound up" over comments on a forum made by nameless trolls (troll being a description of your activity not a personal insult).

If good manners go down well in Europe than how do you explain yourself, you seem to have anything but good manners?

Have a nice evening Mad Max, English Toff or whatever you want to call yourself.

By they way "europeans" should be Europeans.

Well sure enough Eley have launched a new web and it certainly beats it's predessesor.

Well done Eley

Here is the address http://www.eley.co.uk/

I looked at the the so called new line for 2008. It would APPEAR to me that a bunch of the older ammos will no longer be made???? Such as Pistol Standard. Any one else see something that I may be missing? It kind of looks like if you are going to shoot Eley it will be high dollar stuff or nothing. I have a hard time paying over 1K for a case of free pistol ammo!May have to make my wife get a second job :(

slinger wrote:I looked at the the so called new line for 2008. It would APPEAR to me that a bunch of the older ammos will no longer be made???? Such as Pistol Standard. Any one else see something that I may be missing? It kind of looks like if you are going to shoot Eley it will be high dollar stuff or nothing. I have a hard time paying over 1K for a case of free pistol ammo!May have to make my wife get a second job :(

It just looks like they are re-badging some of the ammo Sport, Club, Team will be their lower line with Match and Tennex being thier top line.

Did you read the article about the "New Product range" http://www.eley.co.uk/news/news-article ... nched.aspx

[quote="Richard H"
It just looks like they are re-badging some of the ammo Sport, Club, Team will be their lower line with Match and Tennex being thier top line.

Did you read the article about the "New Product range" http://www.eley.co.uk/news/news-article ... nched.aspx
[/quote]

Read the article and understand the the re-branding, but I don't understand what they are doing physically. Their lines are still producing the same product mix, so are they just changing the specifications of the ammo going into the new boxes? They never seem to publish specs anyway, simply saying that this brand is more uniform or more accurate than that.

I had seen the new product range before ( yesterday) and from what I can see the ONLY way I can get a softer ammo like a 1030 FPS is to go to the Match and Tenex lines. That to me is just way out of line for my ability level. I was able to shoot Pistol Standard out of my Hammerli 162E with good results. I would prefer Pistol match, but as I said before over 1K a case is past my budget. Guess I better look elsewhere for a respectable soft ammo for free pistol.