TargetTalk

Richard H wrote:

jipe wrote:

jackh wrote:This might ruin the used AP market.

My 2 cylinders for 480k2 are 1996 and 1997. Dang!

Indeed: if you cannot find any newly manufactured cylinders for the Hammerli 480 (do not know if the cylinders of the current AP40 fits on it), then the value of all Hammerli 480 has suddenly dropped close to zero.

Yes and no, the vast majority of people who shoot airguns don't shoot in sanction ISSF events, so this rule won't effect them, so they probably wouldn't care as long as the cylinder are still in good shape and hold air (yes some will so the market will be smaller).

As Scott pointed out the problem is the cost of examining the cylinders, its cheaper to get new than inspect old cylinders. Now if there aren't new cylinders available that cost changes, it would be worth having someone take them apart examine the cylinder and rebuild it. I guess they could certify the cylinder in writing. Maybe Scott can comment on this.

Hammerli was Swiss back then and it seems the Swiss are ok with 20yr life spans so it looks like you have another 10 years.

I am sorry, Richard, this time I don't agree with you:
- FWB gives the price for a corrosion check and re-testing of steel air cylinders = 60Euros, there is no reason why the test of aluminium cylinders would be much more expensive, the fact that there is a manometer on modern aluminium cylinder and not on old steel cylinders should not have a big impact on the cost of the test since it is mainly manpower costs.
- Hammerli is one of the brands member of JSM and has also modified the rules to 10 years (just like Steyr who is from Austria = also not German). The fact that there was a change of financial owner inbetween doesn't change anything.
- Seen the official statement of the manufacturers (i.e. after 10 years a cylinder is not safe anymore), even clubs might decide (for insurance reasons) to also enforce the 10 years limit. For this one and what will happen at competitions (ISSF and others) let see what happens. But inbetween, I think that many people will hesitate to buy a pistol for which there is no replacement cylinders available and will anyway ask for a discount/price reduction.

As you state, the first who will have problems with the new rule are the dealers who will not like to stock cylinders anymore. Maybe they will have the possibility to stock pistols and rifles without cylinders and order cylinders on demand.

David Levene wrote:Just as an aside, if the rule says "It is the shooter’s responsibility .....", should the jury be checking it. If the intention was that they should check then shouldn't the rule say "Any air or Co2 cylinder must have been certified as safe and is still within the validity date."

I understand that at the recent European Airgun Championships, AFAIK the first ISSF Supervised Championships under the new rules, they did not check cylinder dates. Maybe an oversight but.........

As many of you know the US TSA has issues with Air Cylinders since they can not open them for inspection. Maybe the Manufactures’ could add inspection ports, windows or design the Air Cylinders to be opened for inspection… Sort of kill two birds with one stone. Any guess on where (Europe, US, etc…) the vast majority of Air Gun Cylinders are sold? Any idea of annual sales numbers?

jipe wrote:

Richard H wrote:

jipe wrote:

jackh wrote:This might ruin the used AP market.

My 2 cylinders for 480k2 are 1996 and 1997. Dang!

Indeed: if you cannot find any newly manufactured cylinders for the Hammerli 480 (do not know if the cylinders of the current AP40 fits on it), then the value of all Hammerli 480 has suddenly dropped close to zero.

Yes and no, the vast majority of people who shoot airguns don't shoot in sanction ISSF events, so this rule won't effect them, so they probably wouldn't care as long as the cylinder are still in good shape and hold air (yes some will so the market will be smaller).

As Scott pointed out the problem is the cost of examining the cylinders, its cheaper to get new than inspect old cylinders. Now if there aren't new cylinders available that cost changes, it would be worth having someone take them apart examine the cylinder and rebuild it. I guess they could certify the cylinder in writing. Maybe Scott can comment on this.

Hammerli was Swiss back then and it seems the Swiss are ok with 20yr life spans so it looks like you have another 10 years.

I am sorry, Richard, this time I don't agree with you:
- FWB gives the price for a corrosion check and re-testing of steel air cylinders = 60Euros, there is no reason why the test of aluminium cylinders would be much more expensive, the fact that there is a manometer on modern aluminium cylinder and not on old steel cylinders should not have a big impact on the cost of the test since it is mainly manpower costs.
- Hammerli is one of the brands member of JSM and has also modified the rules to 10 years (just like Steyr who is from Austria = also not German). The fact that there was a change of financial owner inbetween doesn't change anything.
- Seen the official statement of the manufacturers (i.e. after 10 years a cylinder is not safe anymore), even clubs might decide (for insurance reasons) to also enforce the 10 years limit. For this one and what will happen at competitions (ISSF and others) let see what happens. But inbetween, I think that many people will hesitate to buy a pistol for which there is no replacement cylinders available and will anyway ask for a discount/price reduction.

As you state, the first who will have problems with the new rule are the dealers who will not like to stock cylinders anymore. Maybe they will have the possibility to stock pistols and rifles without cylinders and order cylinders on demand.

1. Has anyone asked FWB what it costs to inspect an aluminum Cylinder? I haven't seen a price quote, or a refusal to inspect.

2. Even at 60 euro plus shipping both ways and no guarantee that it will pass, the price of a new cylinder is probably a better bet, the the gauge does make a difference as I've only seen one other than the Anschtuz that failed and it was a Morini and it was the gauge that failed.

3. Hammerli (Walther) is part of JSM now but it wasn't back when those pistol were made and I'm sure they say Switzerland on them.

4. Read what Scott said regarding Steyr, there biggest market is in Germany. There major share holder is German so you can see why they want to go along with this idea.

5. Clubs might if you guys keep blowing this all out of proportion.

6. What difference does it make if they stock pistol with out cylinders, or just don't stock anything the end is the same less stock of pistols (pistol without cylinders are useless).

I don't know why Morini isn't using this as marketing, it really reduces the cost of ownership of their pistol even more.

GCSInc wrote:As many of you know the US TSA has issues with Air Cylinders since they can not open them for inspection. Maybe the Manufactures’ could add inspection ports, windows or design the Air Cylinders to be opened for inspection… Sort of kill two birds with one stone. Any guess on where (Europe, US, etc…) the vast majority of Air Gun Cylinders are sold? Any idea of annual sales numbers?

Bad idea it would only make them more expensive and complex and more a likely to fail. I'm sure Europe is probably the biggest region for airguns, and Germany is problably the largest within that region (just my guess).

Here again the link to the FWB documents (it already posted on page 4 of this thread):
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... PageId=427
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=289
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=288
http://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules ... hp5?id=276

Like for Steyr, it is said that aluminium cylinders cannot be inspected/tested.

For the test at 60Euros, that's about half the price of a new cylinder. If you have to ship one single cylinder from US, yes it can be almost as expensive as a new, if you ship from Europe, it will be cheaper than a new one. If you ship more than one cylinder in the parcel, it will also be cheaper than new cylinders.

For Hammerli, if the company change the rule, the fact that they were Swiss owned in the past, has no importance, the rules have been changed and it is valid for all products including old one unless exceptions are mentioned what is not the case. But if you face a problem at the cylinder check of a competition, you can try to argue, good luck.

For both Steyr and Hammerli, it is the same: German ownership, German market very important.

For stocking pistol/rifle without cylinder and then ordering separate cylinders, its easier because in many countries it is easier to import a cylinder than a pistol/rifle that is subject to gun import/export rules => shipment can be faster.

Will NRA employ these cylinder rules for their Sectionals?

jackh wrote:Will NRA employ these cylinder rules for their Sectionals?

Ask NRA, only NRA knows !

jackh wrote:Will NRA employ these cylinder rules for their Sectionals?

I don't think the NRA International Pistol Rules address this.

GOVTMODEL wrote:

jackh wrote:Will NRA employ these cylinder rules for their Sectionals?

I don't think the NRA International Pistol Rules address this.

But the USAS International Pistol Rules (presumably) follow ISSF rules

Whilst there may be a process available to successfully carry out the testing of the aluminium AP/AR cylinders, the commercial viability may not prove to be worthwhile to the shooter by the time that postage etc is added on.
I believe that Steyr have recently offered to test steel CO2 cylinders so possibly may be able to offer to test aluminium ones in the near future, if it is commercially viable to them.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, buying and selling secondhand AP/AR is going to become more of a problem.
I solved any possible future problem with my 9 year old Steyr LP1 by obtaining two new cylinders from our super Steyr agent, Harry Preston, both cylinders are just 3 months old. At least I can rest easy.

I received the folowing reply from Lindsay Brooke at USA Shooting. It would appear that the ISSF cylinder rule should not be considered an issue for most US competitions.

ANSWER:
Jim,

At USA Shooting events, we do our best to enforce the ISSF rules to the best of our ability and we expect the same at the club level. Very few competitive shooters are still shooting CO2 guns and usually we don’t regulate the CO2 cylinders that are used during our matches. If a shooter using a CO2 cylinder was to make one of our teams (National or Development Team), we would then need to work with the shooter to comply with the ISSF rules for international competition. For general PTO matches and even our National level matches, I wouldn’t see a real need to enforce the ISSF rules listed below. When the new USAS rule book is published I will make a note in there regarding this as a USAS rule.

I hope this helps!


Lindsay Brooke
Competitions Manager


My original question:
There has been a long thread on a shooting forum about this rule:
Rule 6.2.2.8
It is the shooter’s responsibility that any air or Co2 cylinder has been certified as safe and is still within the validity date.

Various manufacturers have varying policies, and some have no policies. For example FWB has a blanket suggestion of replacement at 10 years. Pardini and Morini have no published recommendations.

Does rule 6.2.2.8 indicate that checking the validity date and verifying against manufacturer’s published data is to be accomplished and enforced by equipment control for all ISSF events?
This effectively bans all older guns from competition.

Or does 6.2.2.8 simply remind shooters of their responsibility for safe maintenance of their guns. This means that this should not be an equipment control checked and disqualifying item.


I am looking for the official position of USA Shooting regarding the checking and disqualification of air guns affected by this rule at USAS events.

Thanks - Jim

For Europe, from 23 to 28 March there will be the France national championship in Chambéry.

We will see what happens for the new rule:
- if anybody checks the cylinders dates ?
- if the date are checked, what happens for people having expired cylinders (there will surely be some), i.e. if they give a warning, if they refuse them... ?

I can find no date of any kind on my Pardini K2 Co2 cylinders. I have four and all they say is:

"MADE IN ITALY CO2 g 53 TARA g 170 PD 250 bar"

Examination of the pamphlet (manual) and other product paperwork indicates no mention of cylinder dates, certifications, inspections, etc.

How could these cylinders be challenged?

I think we all need to just except the fact that the cylinders have an expiry date just like a bbq cylinder or dive tank.

The dates are for safety purposes and to protect the manufacturers from law suites if things go pear shaped.

Basically, whether we like it or not, every ten years a new cylinder will have to be purchased.

If cylinders are no longer avaliable for a particular firearm, you have two choices, cut your losses and buy a new model and hang the old one on the wall or keep using the old one until it blows up on you, atleast you would have got your moneys worth, but you may not be able to shoot anymore!!!!!!!!!!

I think this thread has gone on far to long.

Hello forum,

Just for knowledge, my brother law is involved in paint ball & they have the same rule. Tanks are dated & garbage after 10 years.

In the long run, this rule might turn out to be advantageous. Paintball tanks are fairly standardized - and inexpensive. If this rule forces tanks to become standardized, then it could (in theory) lower the cost of of these guns.

However, I really don't like the idea of needing to trash all the co2 guns because of their age and utter lack of replacement built in tanks. Likewise will this apply to single stroke pneumatics? Air rifle competition in the US is fragile enough - this could significantly change the dynamics of many youth clubs.
---
fwiw I think it would force the youth club I work with to simply abandon air rifle for small bore.

That would be great, lets standardize it now, that way I can toss my LG10, LP10, and LP5, Wow i'd really like to out lay another $7000-$8000.

Anonymous wrote:I think we all need to just except the fact that the cylinders have an expiry date just like a bbq cylinder or dive tank.

The dates are for safety purposes and to protect the manufacturers from law suites if things go pear shaped.

Basically, whether we like it or not, every ten years a new cylinder will have to be purchased.

If cylinders are no longer avaliable for a particular firearm, you have two choices, cut your losses and buy a new model and hang the old one on the wall or keep using the old one until it blows up on you, atleast you would have got your moneys worth, but you may not be able to shoot anymore!!!!!!!!!!


I think this thread has gone on far to long.

Well hell if you think it has gone on to far well then it must have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I used more exclamation marks than you)

Why don't you put your name to a post?

I really wish they'd make it so only registered members could post.

It also solves some of the spam too.

mousehunter wrote:In the long run, this rule might turn out to be advantageous. Paintball tanks are fairly standardized - and inexpensive. If this rule forces tanks to become standardized, then it could (in theory) lower the cost of of these guns.

This makes a lot of sense. Seen the way the cylinders look like, It seems to me that already several AP/AR brands use the same supplier/manufacturer for their cylinders. Also, besides the commercial interest, the cylinders do not provide real differenciator for the manufacturers.

It seems to me also possible to build a kind of adapter from each manufacturer proprietary mounting system to a common/standard mounting system allowing to use the same cylinders for all brands.