I have been a gun owner and competitive shooter for a while. This ain't my first day at the rodeo folks.
However
I have been having a b*tch of a time cleaning my .22LR Free Pistol.
(obligatory aside for the whole "Why are You Cleaning Your .22 In The First Place? I agree in principle that a .22LR should *never* be cleaned- just pull the occasional wet patch/dry patch through after brushing the chamber. That's what i have been doing all along with my rimfire .22s)
For whatever reason (OCD + Bipolar + ADHD) I have decided to give my Free Pistol a "Thorough Cleaning."
Couple of wet patches- pull through with Otis brush 2-5 times- followed by couple of wet patches and a dry patch. Repeat. Every three cycles or so pull a few wet patches through and let it soak overnight.
I have been doing this for over a week. Have gone through 250+ patches and have changed the bore brush twice.
Am still getting very dirty patches immediately following the brushing.
At first I thought "Hey, the brush is dirty and I am just slopping dirty goo around in the barrel." So at about the tenth cycle I started cleaning the bore brush with brake cleaner every time.
Yeah, O.K., so here's my current thinking:
"Have the years of "properly" cleaning (ie don't) my .22LR gun resulted in so much built up crud in the barrel it is impossible to remove all the crud?"
and the related question
"Have I gone too far already?"
[I have become obsessed with trying to get my bore clean. Why? It's a sickness. Ever watch the show "Monk?"]
And yes I know full well that I am really wasting my time . . . this is not really a "practical" question . . .
Really Silly, Basic Cleaning Question
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
hey
Well i have aways cleaned my smallbore rifle, and with cleaning it frequently it is a lot easier to get clean then when you dont clean it for a really long time. The lead will build up over time and may seem like it is taking for ever to clean. Could i ask what kind of cleaning method you are using. I have always believed in cleaning my rifles ever so often.
lax.
lax.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Re: Really Silly, Basic Cleaning Question
Steve,Steve Swartz wrote:. . . . I agree in principle that a .22LR should *never* be cleaned- just pull the occasional wet patch/dry patch through after brushing the chamber. That's what i have been doing all along with my rimfire .22s) . . .
How are you "brushing the chamber"?
I hope you were not just pushing a brush in the chamber and then pulling it back out.
I cleaned a rifle of one of our league shooters who hadn't cleaned his rifle in 8-10 years. I don't know how the primer exploded with all the gunk on the bolt face and the barrel breech. It took me a looooooooonnnnnnng time to get all the lead from the barrel, but not 250 patches. What are you using on your wet patches?
Ben
Steve, let us know how many rounds it takes to "season" the barrel back in. I cleaned a very accurate 10/22 and it took 2 or 3 boxes to get it back to even close to the previous accuracy off a bench. I patched the barrel all evening and gave up with dirty patches still coming out. I used half a bottle Sweets and a nylon brush. Never again!
Brooks
Brooks
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Tony C.
cleaning .22
Back when I was active in shooting smallbore rifle, I clean my rifle after every pratice session, a couple of wet patches, follow with several dry ones, the last dry patch always comes out slightly soiled, and I usually leave it at that.
One time may be just out of curiosity, I want to see if I can get the barrel completely clean so the last dry patch come out just as clean as it goes in, as some rifle guru said thats how clean a barrel should be. After a prolong cleaning session with bronze brush, untold number of wet and dry patches, repeat the process several times, the dry pacth still comes out with a few tiny dark spots on them. Finally I plug the muzzle and pour Shooter's Choice bore cleaner into the barrel, stand the rifle muzzle down and let it sit overnight, next day, dozens of dry patches later, they still comes out with a couple of gray smudges. I came to the conclusion it just not possible to clean a barrel with more than a few rounds thru it to the point that the patches come out absolutly clean.
Speaking to other shooters, just about everyone had the same experiences, I've yet to seen anyone even the benchrest shooters able to clean a barrel so last dry pacth come out like snow white.
Have you gone too far? I always found .22 barrel shoot best when its slightly drity, so if your barrel is too clean for its own good, a few box of ammo will fix that.
These day I mainly shot pistol, my free pistol is a MU-55, which I shot occasionally, I like to keep the action, extractor, falling block etc, clean, as for the barrel I just use a pull thru, haven't try to brush it yet.
Tony
One time may be just out of curiosity, I want to see if I can get the barrel completely clean so the last dry patch come out just as clean as it goes in, as some rifle guru said thats how clean a barrel should be. After a prolong cleaning session with bronze brush, untold number of wet and dry patches, repeat the process several times, the dry pacth still comes out with a few tiny dark spots on them. Finally I plug the muzzle and pour Shooter's Choice bore cleaner into the barrel, stand the rifle muzzle down and let it sit overnight, next day, dozens of dry patches later, they still comes out with a couple of gray smudges. I came to the conclusion it just not possible to clean a barrel with more than a few rounds thru it to the point that the patches come out absolutly clean.
Speaking to other shooters, just about everyone had the same experiences, I've yet to seen anyone even the benchrest shooters able to clean a barrel so last dry pacth come out like snow white.
Have you gone too far? I always found .22 barrel shoot best when its slightly drity, so if your barrel is too clean for its own good, a few box of ammo will fix that.
These day I mainly shot pistol, my free pistol is a MU-55, which I shot occasionally, I like to keep the action, extractor, falling block etc, clean, as for the barrel I just use a pull thru, haven't try to brush it yet.
Tony
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I clean my free pistol after every match and after every practice session where I shoot at least 50 rounds or in high humidity. I use a one piece coated rifle cleaning rod and Match Winner solvent. My Hammerli 162 has a hole in the grip so I can clean from the breech. My patches come out clean. I use a bronze brush about every 2nd or third match. I would use a cable if I had to clean from the muzzle.
I just remembered. The rifle I mentioned above that wasn't cleaned for 8-10 years; I purchased it and used it for outdoor prone matches. It was a Winchester 52C and I won the PA State anysight title one year with a 1599. About two years later I replaced the barrel and I didn't shoot it one X better that I could notice. I should have saved the dough!
Ben
I just remembered. The rifle I mentioned above that wasn't cleaned for 8-10 years; I purchased it and used it for outdoor prone matches. It was a Winchester 52C and I won the PA State anysight title one year with a 1599. About two years later I replaced the barrel and I didn't shoot it one X better that I could notice. I should have saved the dough!
Ben
Soaking, brushing, and patching with a good Mil-spec penetrating oil has never failed to get my barrels beyond clean. Wet patch it and leave it soak overnight repeated over a few days. First it lifts the lead. Then carbon comes out. If it is a barrel that has also shot copper jackets, that seems to come out last as green. Mil-spec oil is stinky and bad for you so be careful.
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I remember being told that the formula for Hoppes #9 was changed in the late 70s or early 80s because of the toxic chemicals used that did the best job of cleaning.jackh wrote:. . . . If it is a barrel that has also shot copper jackets, that seems to come out last as green. Mil-spec oil is stinky and bad for you so be careful.
Where do I get Mil-spec oil Jack?
If you can't locate actual Mil-spec penetrating oil, the name brands like Permatex, Chesterton, are almost as good. You will use it outside and wear rubber gloves. Mil-spec is that stinky.Freepistol wrote: Where do I get Mil-spec oil Jack?
Another product I have had good luck with soaking out barrels is G96 spray, an actual gun product. I am not sure if G96 has or had good but nasty stuff it it as well.
Personally I wouldn't use a pull through unless you have no access to the breech end of the barrel. You can wear the crown on the barrel (especcially if you use it 250 times!)
Also, if you use anything with any amount of abrasive in it, the steel that you are polishing off will make the patch black!!!
Just out of intertest, I too would be interested to see how many rounds it takes to start shooting good groups again. A friend of mine who was a top rapid fire shooter in the 1970-80s had worked out that his pistol shot best 250-400 rounds after cleaning (I'm not sure if I've remembered the exact number of rounds, but you get the idea). He was an Olympian, so knew what he was doing.
Also, if you use anything with any amount of abrasive in it, the steel that you are polishing off will make the patch black!!!
Just out of intertest, I too would be interested to see how many rounds it takes to start shooting good groups again. A friend of mine who was a top rapid fire shooter in the 1970-80s had worked out that his pistol shot best 250-400 rounds after cleaning (I'm not sure if I've remembered the exact number of rounds, but you get the idea). He was an Olympian, so knew what he was doing.
I just bought a Hawkeye borescope and WOW WOW WOW. The first thing I learned is that my cleaning regimen is pretty effective [ I shoot RF and CF BR, I am going to buy a airgun for AGBR ]. I did see some issues with the leade in my RF chambers.
I would suggest paying to have a gunsmith inspect the bbl with a borescope. He will probably not have any problem letting you also look through the scope.
I do have some theories about cleaning. I expect the first patch after brushing to look black, even if the brush was run through a clean bbl. The bbl metal is harder than the bronze brush [ or nylon ]. The bronze brush will loose microscopic bits as it is run through the bore. The first wet patch afterwards is cleaning out the residue from the brush.
If you run a dry patch back and forth through the bore the patch gets burnished and looks dark. The same will happen with a wet patch it would just take more cycles back and forth. Maybe I am FOS but it seems to work good for me and when I looked at my bbls with the scope they were clean.
For my centerfires I use Shooters Choice MC7 for cleaning during the match. At the end of the match I use MC7 and dry patch the bbl completely dry [ and maybe even run a brake cleaner patch ]. Then I use Shooters Choice copper remover letting is set for app 5 mins. I wet the next several patches with rubbing alcohol to neutralize the ammonia. The dry patch and lastly and oily patch [ even on SS bbls ].
For my rimfire I use Ballistol. Seems to do a great job on powder and lead.
Lastly, good bbls make a huge difference in fouling. My 6PPC is a Krieger and my 30BR is a Rock Creek. Both come clean with little effort and minimal brushing [ no more than 5 or 6 back and forth cycles ]. I am using some old Annie blanks on my RF's and the bores are damn smooth on these bbls.
I would suggest paying to have a gunsmith inspect the bbl with a borescope. He will probably not have any problem letting you also look through the scope.
I do have some theories about cleaning. I expect the first patch after brushing to look black, even if the brush was run through a clean bbl. The bbl metal is harder than the bronze brush [ or nylon ]. The bronze brush will loose microscopic bits as it is run through the bore. The first wet patch afterwards is cleaning out the residue from the brush.
If you run a dry patch back and forth through the bore the patch gets burnished and looks dark. The same will happen with a wet patch it would just take more cycles back and forth. Maybe I am FOS but it seems to work good for me and when I looked at my bbls with the scope they were clean.
For my centerfires I use Shooters Choice MC7 for cleaning during the match. At the end of the match I use MC7 and dry patch the bbl completely dry [ and maybe even run a brake cleaner patch ]. Then I use Shooters Choice copper remover letting is set for app 5 mins. I wet the next several patches with rubbing alcohol to neutralize the ammonia. The dry patch and lastly and oily patch [ even on SS bbls ].
For my rimfire I use Ballistol. Seems to do a great job on powder and lead.
Lastly, good bbls make a huge difference in fouling. My 6PPC is a Krieger and my 30BR is a Rock Creek. Both come clean with little effort and minimal brushing [ no more than 5 or 6 back and forth cycles ]. I am using some old Annie blanks on my RF's and the bores are damn smooth on these bbls.
Re: Cleaning
Care to elaborate? How is a barrel that is designed to have lumps of lead or copper-coated lead fored down it going to be overly affected by some fabric patches wiping their way down it?JamesH wrote:It is possible to wear out a barrel with patches, maybe its steel you're seeing on them.
Unless the barrel has been shredded by the ammunition (and shards are coming out on the cloth), I somehow doubt the patches will be wearing away steel.
For what it's worth, I clean my Anschutz 1913 once a month or so. The most important bit is undoubtedly the breech. Leave it long enough and you'll build up so much gunk you'll struggle to get the round in or the bolt closed.
Other than that, the school of thought goes that since an unjacketed lead round will be scored by the (harder) steel rifling on the way down, you'll get a build-up of lead in the rifling, which is not neccesarily going to settle consistently. I'm led to believe that a build up of fouling can lead to a bulged barrel.
Soiled is good, filthy is not...
Re: Cleaning
[quote="Hemmers
Care to elaborate? How is a barrel that is designed to have lumps of lead or copper-coated lead fored down it going to be overly affected by some fabric patches wiping their way down it?
Unless the barrel has been shredded by the ammunition (and shards are coming out on the cloth), I somehow doubt the patches will be wearing away steel.
.[/quote]
Easy, have you ever seen an old metal handrail that has has human hands rubbing down it for years? It's usually worn and polished despite the fact that human skin is softer than steel.
No-one is suggesting that a few patches down a barrel will turn a .22 into a .38, but it only takes a tiny amount to colour the patch. Unless your patches are super clean and in sealed sterile packets they can pick up microscopic abrasive dust just from how/where you store them.
I'm not trying to suggest that this is in any way a problem. The amount of wear would be un-measureable.
Care to elaborate? How is a barrel that is designed to have lumps of lead or copper-coated lead fored down it going to be overly affected by some fabric patches wiping their way down it?
Unless the barrel has been shredded by the ammunition (and shards are coming out on the cloth), I somehow doubt the patches will be wearing away steel.
.[/quote]
Easy, have you ever seen an old metal handrail that has has human hands rubbing down it for years? It's usually worn and polished despite the fact that human skin is softer than steel.
No-one is suggesting that a few patches down a barrel will turn a .22 into a .38, but it only takes a tiny amount to colour the patch. Unless your patches are super clean and in sealed sterile packets they can pick up microscopic abrasive dust just from how/where you store them.
I'm not trying to suggest that this is in any way a problem. The amount of wear would be un-measureable.