Context (Also in Shooter's Lounge)

[Steve Swartz]

All:

I have been doing a bit of ponderation over the recent pseudo-disagreements (more on that in next paragraph or two) we (no, "I") have been involved in recently.

I don't mind wrangling over stuff (go figure) but what bothers me is misunderstanding. As radio talk show host Dennis Prager puts it, he " . . . prefers clarity over agreement." Meaning- simply- that it's o.k. to disagree on real issues, but its bogus to argue with false logic and misrepresentation just to try to prove a point.

O.K.

That having been said, i went back and studied up on some "classic" disagreements that (quite recently) devolved into "two camps" on some issues.

I found a pattern.

Context A:
The shooter who is, or at least was, a full-time sponsored team member. Received coaching, and paid to train full time. Environment characterized by collegial ("Good Old Boy") team environment. Learned everything this way; and formed worldview through this culture. May have been "team shooter" since very young age in one respect or another.

Context B:
The shooter who is the "part timer" or "true amateur." [refer to discussion on definition of "true amateur" a while back] pays for his/her own attendance at sminars, training events. Mostly self coached. Environment characterized by tijme pressures and trying to improve performance "by inches." Has to constantly seek new informationa nd ideas. Concerned with bang/buck and value add vs cost of every dollar and every minute spent on shooting vs. family, work, etc.

I think there are repercussions to this whenever we try to speak to one another on this forum. Those who were "raised" in the "8 hours a day available for training" environment have a certain worldview and mindset. Those who live in the "squeeze in 15 minutes of dry fire during lunch break" have a very different worldview or mindset.

How does this affect the way we approach "the way to the mountaintop" (as fellow shooter Brooks put it in a separate post)?

Still thinking about this one.

[FP570]

The simple truth is to get in the mythical group "A" you start in group "B". No one is just "poof" a member of the US Team or an AMU member. These folks have made a decision to go after a goal and put all else in their life aside. Many shooters do not get support and stay in your group "B", the difference is they have drive and desire,a nd make it work within their life style.

If you get caught up with envy over whether the guy or gal next to you is better because of some sort of miniscule support, you have already lost.

Take Bill Demerest or JohnZurek for instance. Both have jobs and families-neither was a member of the AMU or a resident athlete at the OTC.Talk to Turner about the pension prospects he has from working at Fridays.

If you think that money will make you a better shooter- mortgage the house.

Winners make it happen- losers make excuses.

[Steve Swartz]

Man, this is hard to figure out. It seems like I "pushed a button" again. I went back and looked through what I wrote, thinking that I must have been wasted or something when I wrote it because it seems like you have reacted to some underlying things I didn't say- didn't intend to say- and wouldn't say in any case.

Specific reactions, point by point, embedded below. With summary comments to follow.

***********************************************
The simple truth is to get in the mythical group "A" you start in group "B". No one is just "poof" a member of the US Team or an AMU member.

** Absolutely. Some start as juniors in clubs, some get identified by military unit and enter the team/training system, etc.

These folks have made a decision to go after a goal and put all else in their life aside.

** Some have yes. "Many paths up the mountain." Some branches of the military have very well organized "paths" and others do not. The paths are different. Some might be perceived as "easier" or "more direct" than others but I'm not sure what the relevance is?

Many shooters do not get support and stay in your group "B", the difference is they have drive and desire, and make it work within their life style.

** See above. Some get picked up by their organizations system before a whole lot of investment has taken place (someone with "natural talent" getting picked up for a service team and *then* the hard work begins) but again, I'm not sure what the relevance is.

If you get caught up with envy over whether the guy or gal next to you is better because of some sort of miniscule support, you have already lost.

** Agree 100%. But not sure of the relevance. Did you think I was implying the military team shooters had it easy? Never said that. Only said that once they became full time shooters, their perspective/point of view etc. changed because of their environment. They become part of their teams/systems culture. They absorb the culture, and see things differently because of it.

Take Bill Demerest or John Zurek for instance. Both have jobs and families-neither was a member of the AMU or a resident athlete at the OTC.

** Yep. Those guys are the "Breakout Heroes" for many of the Group B shooters. They prove that yes, it *can* be done. Not that it's easy- I think it could be argued that it's harder for them- but just that it's possible.

Talk to Turner about the pension prospects he has from working at Fridays.

** I don't think anyone has suggested Jason ever had it easy or didn't have to bust his ass to earn what he has earned. And, he has certainly had to (along with many other world class athletes) make some tough choices and give up a lot to get where he is. Additional comment on this later.

If you think that money will make you a better shooter- mortgage the house.

** O.K. (?)

Winners make it happen- losers make excuses.

** O.K. (?)

********************************************************

Not sure where the sensitivity comes from FP570. I guess you have heard comments from other competitors about how "easy" the Group A shooters have it? I'm pretty sure I have never said that. Some

My point is that I'm trying to understand where the "Pushback" from the Group A shooters (against self-coaching, organizing your training program, working on fundamentals, etc.) comes from.

But the pushback is real, and comes from someplace deep (at least for a couple of poster IDs) and seems to have some real deep-seated resentment at work.

Others have suggested it's the old "Be wary of advice from people at the top- they do not desire your company" concept, but I don't believe that for a minute.

One guy suggested it might be the "If people can learn on their own, they won't need to pay me to teach them" thing. I don't believe that one either.

Both those explanations sound good, but I don't buy it.

I'm a pretty smart (well, "educated" at least) guy but this is a complete mystery to me.

Why the resistance to
1. Self coaching
2. Organized self coaching
3. Organized self coaching by working on fundamentals

???????

[2650 Plus]

Steve , the critic strikes again, FP570 gave his considered opinion about supported and unsuported shooters and did a fine job . He can out shoot both of us and in my opinion you tried the poor old Steve is being picked on again as an opening to build your own reputation as THE expert and tear down a better shooter. If you can't stand the competition maybe you should vacate the kitchen. Good Shooting FP570, drive on. Bill Horton

[william]

Steve, for the first time in recent memory I can find nothing in your comments to disagree with. On the rare occasions when I'm in a match with military team shooters (it would be hubris to claim that I "compete" with them), two things come to mind:
1. Boy, are they good; and
2. I wish I didn't have to pay for my own ammunition. It wouldn't make me a better shooter, just leave me a few more bucks to pay for things like food, gasoline, home repairs, heating oil.... And I bet those Marines never have to sit down in front of a reloading press.

[Fred]

Steve , the critic strikes again, FP570 gave his considered opinion about supported and unsuported shooters and did a fine job . He can out shoot both of us and in my opinion you tried the poor old Steve is being picked on again as an opening to build your own reputation as THE expert and tear down a better shooter. If you can't stand the competition maybe you should vacate the kitchen. Good Shooting FP570, drive on. Bill Horton

Hi Bill,

I'm really curious about something. Do you know exactly who "FP570" is? If so, would you please share that with us? If not, then I wonder if I, for example, signed on only as "AP585+" would you then also assume that I am a top level shooter? (In contrast to "FP570", Bill, you sign your full name, so one could check NRA records if desired to see your 2650+ status.)

Regards,
FredB AKA "APXXX+"

[2650 Plus]

I actually know just as much about FP570 As I do about 95% of the posters on this forum. But until I find out something different I accept his statement at face value. His First post after my invitation departed somewhat from current accepted wisdom but I don't find a problem with that. For example, he hinted that he uses center hold with the free pistol and a hard grip. You will agree I'm sure that those ideas are not outside the pale. Remember Skanaker who trains and holds like a rock at over 70 years old. Center hold is also rather conventional as with center hold a cant that varries a bit from shot to shot doesn't cause that upside grin in the strike of the bullet on the target and doesn't cause the same number of nines. Some have claimed advanced status with out the scores to back up their claim, others just jump in with smart and degrading remarks. There are trolls and those that take every oppertunity to pounce on all posters and have never contributed a single bit of helpful advice to any one. I really don't care a flip as I limit my posts to how I shoot and try to suppress the ankle bighters and overtly jealouse nit pickers. Good Shootimg Bill Horton

[FP570]

Sorry- but I shoot sub six- maybe 4/5 ring. I have tried center which is what Buljung used but I just could not get comfortable with it. One day a 565, the next a 545. Jimmie McCoy at the AMU was another CH shooter who could make it work. I had issues also indoor for AP. I think sub six works the best in all around circumstances, but then they changed the center Fire target to the current large sphere- well I do shoot that with CH.
John Bickar may be a CH shooter come to think of it.

On the disparity of supported shooter, I guess long ago I may have held the belief that support was the important, but I like my freedom. If I want to train I do if not I don't. I don't have a coach saying don't shoot BE or Standard Pistol.

Support at least at the OTC is not all that you may think it is cracked up to be if you could see the numbers.

But I digress- lets get back to the mechanics if shooting.

Bill: I still remember the "old clubhouse" at the AMU club with that rattle snake skin on the wall if you shot there .

[fp570]

Oh and I think Jim McJunkin (SP?) has some NRA point for me.

[FP570]

Bill: My bad, that was Jim McQueen at the Ft Benning Shooting Club. McJunkin was the West Point coach.

[2650 Plus]

For FP 570 Oh yes I do remember that huge rattlesnake skin on the wall of the club house. Mcqueen was a service rifle shooter , Probably the best in the country. Joe Benner was the first Military academy coach I knaw, He was followed by Herb Roberts { Killed in Veit Nam} Next was Emil Huegatter Who worked with Ruby Fox also. Nothing but fond memories of them all.My son graduated from West Point in the class of 87. I have lost track of many great shooters but still communicate with some of the old gang.Any way, Good Shooting , Keep em in the ten ring and enjoy the ride, Bill Horton

[jackh]

You boys know about this?
http://www.militarymarksmanship.org/

[2650 Plus]

Thanks Jack, the info really worked. It brought back memories that havent occurred in many years, Those were the good guys of American shooting. I was told over 20 years ago that Bill Krilling had died of a heart attack, Just imagine my feelings when I saw his induction. The first major match I ever won was the European army pistol match, Bill Krilling won the rifle championship the same day. And that was in 1956... Better shooting through knowledge . Bill Horton