Hi folks.
The City of Toronto, notably the Mayor David Miller, wants to ban guns in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Yes see, guns are bad. And guns kill people. Not that people are responsible for their actions, or that people hurt (kill) with other implements, namely knives, clubs, bottles, cars, fire, etc.
And to make the City's intent plain, City Council (under Mr. Miller), has decided to close the Scarborough Rifle Club and the CNRA Handgun Club. What is terribly sad is that both of these clubs are focused on international shooting (i.e. the Olympics). One of Canada's four 2008 Olympic Athlete Hopefuls, Avianna Chao, learned how to shoot air pistol at the Scarborough Rifle Club, and honed her skills in air pistol and sport pistol.
Now, about two months in front of the Olympics, Mayor Miller wants to shut down her training facilities because her sport is the cause of gun and gang violence in Toronto.
What can you do? Simple: Boycott Toronto.
(Get the facts and visit http://www.torontothebad.com/)
If you are involved with movie production, boycott Toronto. Go to New York and Vancouver to shoot your films. (Activities which promote firearm use will be banned on City property under the new bylaw. Movies, shot on the streets of Toronto, could be shut down.)
If you are looking for a vacation destination, enjoy the other parts of Canada. Steer clear of Toronto, because as firearm owners, you are a criminal in waiting. (Today, Miller dismissed his opponents as "so called legal gun owners." I have a stack of paperwork from the Canadian government that says I've followed the laws.)
If you have investment money, seed it in cities that respect private property and entrepreneurship. (The new bylaw will target firearm related businesses and try to shut them down, whether or not they have done anything wrong.)
So please, boycott Toronto. Tell Mayor Miller that you're not interested in doing business with Toronto. Shoot movies in Vancouver, visit Saskatoon, invest in Hamilton. Just don't come to Toronto, because the Mayor doesn't want you around.
Here's Mayor Miller's contact information: http://www.toronto.ca/mayor_miller/contact.htm
Whether you are a Canadian, American, European... from wherever. Your voice, stating that you will boycott Toronto in all matters (business and tourism) can have an impact. Let's face it: Mayor Miller is only doing this for votes, not out of a real interest incurbing gang activity and violence. (If that were the case, he would do something meaningful.) Let him know that you will not support "Toronto the Bad".
Patrick Haynes
City of Toronto Attempts Bylaw By-Pass to Affect Handgun Ban
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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Patrick Haynes
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- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:36 pm
- Contact:
I aggree with your concerns about the Toronto Mayor, he is living in cloud cookoo land. Ask this nutter if he wants Canadian shooters to win medals at the next Olympics or not?
Why is it that in many European and Scandinavian countries governments support shooting and in Norway it is the 'national' sport, yet in most English speaking countries it is looked unpon as an evil sport associated with gun crime.
Its all about votes and a very uninformed and bias media.
Why is it that in many European and Scandinavian countries governments support shooting and in Norway it is the 'national' sport, yet in most English speaking countries it is looked unpon as an evil sport associated with gun crime.
Its all about votes and a very uninformed and bias media.
Re: City of Toronto Attempts Bylaw By-Pass to Affect Handgun
Patrick,Patrick Haynes wrote:
Here's Mayor Miller's contact information: http://www.toronto.ca/mayor_miller/contact.htm
Whether you are a Canadian, American, European... from wherever. Your voice, stating that you will boycott Toronto in all matters (business and tourism) can have an impact. Let's face it: Mayor Miller is only doing this for votes, not out of a real interest incurbing gang activity and violence. (If that were the case, he would do something meaningful.) Let him know that you will not support "Toronto the Bad".
Patrick Haynes
Just sent the guy an email saying he will not get any of my custom whilst such a proposal is on the table. Note on his webste, he has a petition in place, any chance of getting a counter petition produced ?
Rob.
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
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Fred
Richard,Richard H wrote:Hopefully the firearm based businesses will get off their collective butts and refuse to sell ammo and firearms to the Toronto Police Dept. That seems to have been on thing that has worked to fend off Draconian legislation in the US.
Unhappily what you say is incorrect. I believe it would work, but it just doesn't happen very often. Many manufacturers and businesses do support the NRA, which is fairly effective on the national level. However I'm aware of only one very limited refusal to sell to states or localities, where the NRA is not very effective. As a result, states and localities have in some cases passed some really onerous laws - I know because I live in one such state (California). If only they would listen to you....
FredB
Fighting antigun crowd with logical arguments and threats only makes things worse. The more thoroughly you demonstrate why the person's ideas are wrong - they will only triple the effort to get rid of you.
At my range (99.9% high-caliber handgun/rifle shooting), the owners and managers approach the problem differently: they seek out the most prominent and vocal representatives of the anti-gun crowd and give them the tour of the range, where they can witness responsible and friendly people and their families having great time in a safe manner, and be a part of it.
Fighting anti-gun crowd is moot. The only option is to assimilate!
At my range (99.9% high-caliber handgun/rifle shooting), the owners and managers approach the problem differently: they seek out the most prominent and vocal representatives of the anti-gun crowd and give them the tour of the range, where they can witness responsible and friendly people and their families having great time in a safe manner, and be a part of it.
Fighting anti-gun crowd is moot. The only option is to assimilate!
Many years ago we had a problem with the local Mayor and council who were all very anti gun and wanted to close us down. So we invited them to the club [clay pigeon]. Only 5 turned up but they had a good day and all had a shoot. This got them on our side and we managed to show them what fun it can be and how safe we were. Our club survived.
Well there are two that I know of, the recent Mass. Bullet marking legislation where both Remington and Olins stood up and then there was Ronny Barret in the great state of California .50 cal ban. Having businesses stand up is not a guarantee but it is a very important part of the fight as they have as much if not more to loose than individuals. Business also tend to have more political clout, they tend to contribute to political campaigns more than individuals.Fred wrote:Richard,Richard H wrote:Hopefully the firearm based businesses will get off their collective butts and refuse to sell ammo and firearms to the Toronto Police Dept. That seems to have been on thing that has worked to fend off Draconian legislation in the US.
Unhappily what you say is incorrect. I believe it would work, but it just doesn't happen very often. Many manufacturers and businesses do support the NRA, which is fairly effective on the national level. However I'm aware of only one very limited refusal to sell to states or localities, where the NRA is not very effective. As a result, states and localities have in some cases passed some really onerous laws - I know because I live in one such state (California). If only they would listen to you..
FredB
Last edited by Richard H on Wed May 28, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Someones on your side Patrick
I emailed your Mayor and told him Toronto was off the agenda next year... I await a response.
regards
Ed
regards
Ed
Here is the mayor's reply.....(our family will not be visiting Toronto any more until the mayor's office changes their views). Sounds like the Grand Prix may have to have the site venue changed.
Dear Matt Dardas,
Thank you for writing. I will share your perspective with the Mayor.
Mayor Miller believes the staff report released this week is the logical next step in making Toronto an even safer city. Handguns are unlike anything else as they are designed and intended for one purpose: to kill people. As you may be aware, the Mayor has already publicly called for a ban on the private ownership of handguns across Canada. That call has received the support of Mayors from all over the country as well as Premier Dalton McGuinty. The Atlantic Mayors' Congress and Montreal Mayor Gerald Tremblay are among the most recent to add their support.
With that already underway, it is incumbent on the city to take whatever steps and measures are within its power to show that we are serious about attacking gun violence on all fronts. That means that gun clubs will have to vacate city property and gun manufacturers and distributors will no longer be able to establish themselves in Toronto. We cannot talk about a national handgun ban or approach our neighbours in the United States and ask them to help eliminate gun violence without showing we are willing to take whatever actions we can locally.
The City of Toronto has the right to regulate the property and civil rights aspects of firearms as they relate to the health, safety and well being of its residents. Handguns pose an increasing threat in our community that we must not ignore. The Mayor wants to ensure that the City is taking all available actions to address gun violence.
Specific areas of recommended action to be considered next week by the Executive Committee include:
* Land use restrictions affecting manufacture, assembly, warehousing, distribution and discharge of guns.
* Eliminating recreational use of firearms on City property, specifically, shooting ranges at the Don Montgomery Community Recreation Centre (former Mid-Scarborough Community Centre) and Union Station.
* Comprehensive monitoring of incidents and impacts of firearm violence and injury in Toronto. Providing social supports to break the cycle of violence.
* Intergovernmental advocacy.
The report is posted on the City's website at: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008 ... x21-ar.pdf
With respect to the ban, that would be up to the Federal Government to act but Mayor Miller believes the urgency of a handgun ban and the impact it could have in Toronto are simple. We know that about a third of the guns used to commit crimes in this city were at one point legally registered. Recently, a legally registered handgun was used to murder someone on a Toronto street. But this is not just a Toronto issue. Canadian police services reported 8,105 victims of violent gun crime, ranging from assault to robbery and homicide in 2006 - a rate of almost 1 person per hour victimized by violent gun crime.
While there are no simple answers to the scourge of gun violence in all Canadian cities, the banning of private ownership of handguns would cut off supply of at least some of the weapons that are used for criminal purposes.
The handgun ban is part of the Mayor's strategy to make our safe city safer. Among the other parts of the strategy:
* There are 450 more police officers on our streets and in our neighbourhoods.
* We are addressing the root causes of violence through our Community Safety Plan.
The strategy is working. Young people in priority communities are benefitting from the creation of thousands of jobs, training and recreational opportunities. For more information on our plan for Making Our Safe City Safer Community Safer, please visit our website: www.toronto.ca/community_safety .
In Toronto, crime is down in every major category, except gun murders. For this reason, the Mayor's gun violence strategy includes:
* A handgun ban
* Tougher crime legislation for illegal gun use
* Increased anti-gun smuggling security at the Canada-U.S. border
* Stronger U.S. gun controls
* Continuation of community based prevention and youth opportunity development
* Continuation of the Toronto Anti violence Interventions Strategy (TAVIS) initiative of the Toronto Police Service
It's true that the majority of handguns used are illegally imported into the country and the Mayor has called on the Federal government to increase efforts to stem the flow at the border. The Mayor is also working with Mayors across the United States to have the federal government in that country take action on the easy availability of handguns.
I think you will agree that you cannot put a price on human life. If a handgun ban and the other measures we are taking save even one life, it will be more than worth it.
Again, thank you for sharing your point of view.
Joanne Miller
Dear Matt Dardas,
Thank you for writing. I will share your perspective with the Mayor.
Mayor Miller believes the staff report released this week is the logical next step in making Toronto an even safer city. Handguns are unlike anything else as they are designed and intended for one purpose: to kill people. As you may be aware, the Mayor has already publicly called for a ban on the private ownership of handguns across Canada. That call has received the support of Mayors from all over the country as well as Premier Dalton McGuinty. The Atlantic Mayors' Congress and Montreal Mayor Gerald Tremblay are among the most recent to add their support.
With that already underway, it is incumbent on the city to take whatever steps and measures are within its power to show that we are serious about attacking gun violence on all fronts. That means that gun clubs will have to vacate city property and gun manufacturers and distributors will no longer be able to establish themselves in Toronto. We cannot talk about a national handgun ban or approach our neighbours in the United States and ask them to help eliminate gun violence without showing we are willing to take whatever actions we can locally.
The City of Toronto has the right to regulate the property and civil rights aspects of firearms as they relate to the health, safety and well being of its residents. Handguns pose an increasing threat in our community that we must not ignore. The Mayor wants to ensure that the City is taking all available actions to address gun violence.
Specific areas of recommended action to be considered next week by the Executive Committee include:
* Land use restrictions affecting manufacture, assembly, warehousing, distribution and discharge of guns.
* Eliminating recreational use of firearms on City property, specifically, shooting ranges at the Don Montgomery Community Recreation Centre (former Mid-Scarborough Community Centre) and Union Station.
* Comprehensive monitoring of incidents and impacts of firearm violence and injury in Toronto. Providing social supports to break the cycle of violence.
* Intergovernmental advocacy.
The report is posted on the City's website at: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2008 ... x21-ar.pdf
With respect to the ban, that would be up to the Federal Government to act but Mayor Miller believes the urgency of a handgun ban and the impact it could have in Toronto are simple. We know that about a third of the guns used to commit crimes in this city were at one point legally registered. Recently, a legally registered handgun was used to murder someone on a Toronto street. But this is not just a Toronto issue. Canadian police services reported 8,105 victims of violent gun crime, ranging from assault to robbery and homicide in 2006 - a rate of almost 1 person per hour victimized by violent gun crime.
While there are no simple answers to the scourge of gun violence in all Canadian cities, the banning of private ownership of handguns would cut off supply of at least some of the weapons that are used for criminal purposes.
The handgun ban is part of the Mayor's strategy to make our safe city safer. Among the other parts of the strategy:
* There are 450 more police officers on our streets and in our neighbourhoods.
* We are addressing the root causes of violence through our Community Safety Plan.
The strategy is working. Young people in priority communities are benefitting from the creation of thousands of jobs, training and recreational opportunities. For more information on our plan for Making Our Safe City Safer Community Safer, please visit our website: www.toronto.ca/community_safety .
In Toronto, crime is down in every major category, except gun murders. For this reason, the Mayor's gun violence strategy includes:
* A handgun ban
* Tougher crime legislation for illegal gun use
* Increased anti-gun smuggling security at the Canada-U.S. border
* Stronger U.S. gun controls
* Continuation of community based prevention and youth opportunity development
* Continuation of the Toronto Anti violence Interventions Strategy (TAVIS) initiative of the Toronto Police Service
It's true that the majority of handguns used are illegally imported into the country and the Mayor has called on the Federal government to increase efforts to stem the flow at the border. The Mayor is also working with Mayors across the United States to have the federal government in that country take action on the easy availability of handguns.
I think you will agree that you cannot put a price on human life. If a handgun ban and the other measures we are taking save even one life, it will be more than worth it.
Again, thank you for sharing your point of view.
Joanne Miller
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jacques b gros
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:54 am
- Location: Rio Grande do Sul - South Brazil
E-mail sent to Toronto's mayor
"If the mayor thinks that banning the guns will reduce crimes, please visit Rio de Janeiro. Hope you do not become a statistics item. Gun control in effect in Brazil managed to remove the guns off the hands of the honest citizen, but they forgot that bandits do not care much about legallity issues regarding their guns. In fact, most of them are forbidden outside the army due to the fire power.
All those years of "politically correct dictatorship" and its tragic results did not manage to put some sense in your soft head?
Hope this silly move does not causes permanent damage in your beautifull city (I've been there).
My respects.
Jacques B. Gros"
All those years of "politically correct dictatorship" and its tragic results did not manage to put some sense in your soft head?
Hope this silly move does not causes permanent damage in your beautifull city (I've been there).
My respects.
Jacques B. Gros"
I was impressed with the support this morning on the Bill Carroll show on CFRB. Listen to the show for about 1 1/2 hours and there wasn't a single caller that agreed with Miller's position most see it for what it is, a political ploy to further his anti-gun ideology.
The key to the success is our American cousins making a lot of noise with regards to spending their vacation money somewhere other than Toronto.
The key to the success is our American cousins making a lot of noise with regards to spending their vacation money somewhere other than Toronto.
Is that really true?Matt wrote:Here is the mayor's reply.....We know that about a third of the guns used to commit crimes in this city were at one point legally registered. Recently, a legally registered handgun was used to murder someone on a Toronto street.country take action on the easy availability of handguns.
When pondering about emigration recently, I looked into the canadian laws wrt. gun ownership. The situation seems to be similar to Germany: In an exam one demonstrates experience and knowledge about handling and storing of guns and upon success one is issued after some time a state licence. So I find the above statement hard to believe (and the wording in the interview: "so-called legal gun owner" on the brink of an insult).
The German crime statistics reveal for 2006 the following: total crimes (for a population of some 80,000,000 habitants) 6,300,000. violent crimes: 220,000, murder/homicides 2,300. Guns were fired in 4500 cases (observe the contrast to number of homicides) theft of guns: 964 cases. (source here: http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2006/download/ ... 06_bka.pdf - unfortunately in German...maybe not so surprising..)
There is surely a canadian statistic that can be used to falsify the mayors above statement or not?
Axel
crime statistics
Meanwhile I found time to look up some statitical data.
The first source I found is called The Daily which provides data up to 2004. A very similar development to the one for Germany: violent crime including homicide: the numers are dropping.
For reference: http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm
The second source here: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/
with data up to 2006 indicates (table "homicide by method") that shooting is the second choice and stabbing comes first. Therefore a ban of knifes should probably the first step if one is of the opinion that tools are more dangerous that people.
This table "Homicide offences, number and rate, by province and territory" here:http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal12a.htm shows that the number has dropped for the Ontario region from 219 down to 196 (per 100,000) comparing 2005 with 2006.
If I understand/interpret this correctly, the "felt" crime rate is (as in Germany) higher that the real crime rate. And the statistic does not support the viewpoint of the mayor.
However - probably again similar to Germany - it seems to be futile to confront a politician with statistical figures. This approach seems to be either beyond their understanding or beyond their willingness to listen.
( I remember vividly a public discussion in Germany seen on television ages ago between the then mayor of Hamburg, Mr. Dohnanyi and an unknown voter who dared to say: "I vote for you if you have a reasonable answer how you are going to handle toxic waste disposal in our immediate vicinity." The mayor was not pleased and said "This is not the level on which I discuss things..." The voter remains unknown and Mr. Dohnanyi is still an etremely respected elder statesman)
Just for interest: Has someone maybe more recent statistical data?
The first source I found is called The Daily which provides data up to 2004. A very similar development to the one for Germany: violent crime including homicide: the numers are dropping.
For reference: http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm
The second source here: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/
with data up to 2006 indicates (table "homicide by method") that shooting is the second choice and stabbing comes first. Therefore a ban of knifes should probably the first step if one is of the opinion that tools are more dangerous that people.
This table "Homicide offences, number and rate, by province and territory" here:http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal12a.htm shows that the number has dropped for the Ontario region from 219 down to 196 (per 100,000) comparing 2005 with 2006.
If I understand/interpret this correctly, the "felt" crime rate is (as in Germany) higher that the real crime rate. And the statistic does not support the viewpoint of the mayor.
However - probably again similar to Germany - it seems to be futile to confront a politician with statistical figures. This approach seems to be either beyond their understanding or beyond their willingness to listen.
( I remember vividly a public discussion in Germany seen on television ages ago between the then mayor of Hamburg, Mr. Dohnanyi and an unknown voter who dared to say: "I vote for you if you have a reasonable answer how you are going to handle toxic waste disposal in our immediate vicinity." The mayor was not pleased and said "This is not the level on which I discuss things..." The voter remains unknown and Mr. Dohnanyi is still an etremely respected elder statesman)
Just for interest: Has someone maybe more recent statistical data?
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Tony C.
I'm very impressed by the general condemnation from all side of David Millers action.
As for the stats mention by the Mayors office, 1/3 of the guns used in crime are one time legal guns, I don't know where it come from, may be its from the Canadian Firearm Centre, thats the agency that register; enforce firearm laws; compile stats and such in Canada, created a few yrs ago when long gun registration were put into effect, 2 billons dollars (Billons!) were spent to set it up, to make rather sad long story short, lets just say its dosn't work as itended.
This agency regularly put out stats and news bulletin saying how good a job they've been doing, how gun crime is down due to its hard work at
refusing granting permits; cutting down the number of firearms in circulations etc etc...about 3 yrs ago, with great fanfare, it proclaim gun crime were down in evey Canadian cities and provinces because due to thier relentless efforts, the stories were in every paper and newscasts across the country, within days, there were gun battles between gangbangers in Toronto, 5 people were shot in one weekend, that summer, later known as 'summer of the gun'.
About the assertion a legaly owned handgun were used in a murder short while ago in Toronto, thats what the news report is saying and the case hasn't come to trial, so I can't say how true is it. Even if that turn out to be true, as some one commited an illegal act, the status of the weapon is, IMHO somewhat irrelevant, if we use David Millers logic, I guess we need to shut down all banks, jewelry shops... etc, since they got rob every day, and criminals use the proceeds, to buy more guns and drug.
Fact is, gun crime in Canada, with the exception of major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and such, is still fairly rare. Toronto suffer a number of high profile shooting lately where innocent people were killed by gangbanger having running gun battle on city streets, David Miller, like any politician, prefer simple sound bite solutions, rather attack the core of the problems, like some other poster said, we legal gun owners were just a bunch of easy targets. He is still smarting from he's unable to get a handgun ban from the Feds, so he shifted his sight to the next target. His motion will be debate in city council in a few days, so stay tune.
I would also like to thank everyone from around the world express thier supports, even I havn't live in Toronto for decades, glad to hear from all of you.
Tony
As for the stats mention by the Mayors office, 1/3 of the guns used in crime are one time legal guns, I don't know where it come from, may be its from the Canadian Firearm Centre, thats the agency that register; enforce firearm laws; compile stats and such in Canada, created a few yrs ago when long gun registration were put into effect, 2 billons dollars (Billons!) were spent to set it up, to make rather sad long story short, lets just say its dosn't work as itended.
This agency regularly put out stats and news bulletin saying how good a job they've been doing, how gun crime is down due to its hard work at
refusing granting permits; cutting down the number of firearms in circulations etc etc...about 3 yrs ago, with great fanfare, it proclaim gun crime were down in evey Canadian cities and provinces because due to thier relentless efforts, the stories were in every paper and newscasts across the country, within days, there were gun battles between gangbangers in Toronto, 5 people were shot in one weekend, that summer, later known as 'summer of the gun'.
About the assertion a legaly owned handgun were used in a murder short while ago in Toronto, thats what the news report is saying and the case hasn't come to trial, so I can't say how true is it. Even if that turn out to be true, as some one commited an illegal act, the status of the weapon is, IMHO somewhat irrelevant, if we use David Millers logic, I guess we need to shut down all banks, jewelry shops... etc, since they got rob every day, and criminals use the proceeds, to buy more guns and drug.
Fact is, gun crime in Canada, with the exception of major cities like Toronto, Vancouver and such, is still fairly rare. Toronto suffer a number of high profile shooting lately where innocent people were killed by gangbanger having running gun battle on city streets, David Miller, like any politician, prefer simple sound bite solutions, rather attack the core of the problems, like some other poster said, we legal gun owners were just a bunch of easy targets. He is still smarting from he's unable to get a handgun ban from the Feds, so he shifted his sight to the next target. His motion will be debate in city council in a few days, so stay tune.
I would also like to thank everyone from around the world express thier supports, even I havn't live in Toronto for decades, glad to hear from all of you.
Tony