qualified coaches

[2650 Plus]

Ron the problem I have with the "never was" type of coach is the enormous gaps missing in their knoweldge of how we do the shot sequence. They know so little that they are dangerous to even the beginner actually helping he / she to develope bad habits that they may never be able to overcome. So , what are the minimum requirements we should expect of a coach for the begining shooter. First a clear understanding of the fundamentals .Next the ability to explain the fundamentals correctly over and over and avoid confusing the beginner with conflicting information. Third enough shooting skill so as to cause the student to have a high level of confidence in the information he is providing. He must also teach in a totally positive manner , be able to identify error paterns and guide the shooter toward positive correction of the error. Surely there must be more but I am about out of ideas right now, Maybe more later. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[RobStubbs]

Ron the problem I have with the "never was" type of coach is the enormous gaps missing in their knoweldge of how we do the shot sequence. They know so little that they are dangerous to even the beginner actually helping he / she to develope bad habits that they may never be able to overcome. So , what are the minimum requirements we should expect of a coach for the begining shooter. First a clear understanding of the fundamentals .Next the ability to explain the fundamentals correctly over and over and avoid confusing the beginner with conflicting information. Third enough shooting skill so as to cause the student to have a high level of confidence in the information he is providing. He must also teach in a totally positive manner , be able to identify error paterns and guide the shooter toward positive correction of the error. Surely there must be more but I am about out of ideas right now, Maybe more later. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,
Who said anything about the 'never was' coaches ? I merely said high level coaches do not need to have been high level athletes. They obviously still need to understand the technical aspects well.

Read what you've written above carefully, that all still applies to a coach that was never a world champion !

Rob.

[2650 Plus]

Rob, Please read the last post I made just above your responce. There are coaches that are really effective at only one level , and the level I was describing was the basic new shooter type coach. He clearly does not need to know the oerformance paremeters necessary to compete at world record level nor the mental requirements needed to sustain him at the same. I would not expect him to know how to approach world record levels in is own shooting, nor to produce a shooter by hinself that could do so. If you are a basic level coach you may be responsible for getting the next world champion on the right track but you should pass him / her on to those with skills that match the future needs of the shooter. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Rob, Please read the last post I made just above your responce. There are coaches that are really effective at only one level , and the level I was describing was the basic new shooter type coach. He clearly does not need to know the oerformance paremeters necessary to compete at world record level nor the mental requirements needed to sustain him at the same. I would not expect him to know how to approach world record levels in is own shooting, nor to produce a shooter by hinself that could do so. If you are a basic level coach you may be responsible for getting the next world champion on the right track but you should pass him / her on to those with skills that match the future needs of the shooter. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[David Levene]

I just wondered if people are aware of the ISSF Academy and it's schemes for licencing coaches.

[RobStubbs]

Rob, Please read the last post I made just above your responce. There are coaches that are really effective at only one level , and the level I was describing was the basic new shooter type coach. He clearly does not need to know the oerformance paremeters necessary to compete at world record level nor the mental requirements needed to sustain him at the same. I would not expect him to know how to approach world record levels in is own shooting, nor to produce a shooter by hinself that could do so. If you are a basic level coach you may be responsible for getting the next world champion on the right track but you should pass him / her on to those with skills that match the future needs of the shooter. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill,
The 'coach' you describe, is what we would call an instructor. In the UK we have a series of coaching qualifications and only the higher ones really cover proper shooter development. The lowest two are just aimed at clubs and club shooters.

All that said there is still no pre-requisite that a high level coach has to have been a high level shooter, which is the original point I was making, and that you keep skirting around. We'll have to agree to disagree, as this is a circuitous argument helping no-one.

Rob.

[Fred Mannis]

I just wondered if people are aware of the ISSF Academy and it's schemes for licencing coaches.

Interesting... Does anyone know whether USAS makes use of this program?

[pilkguns]

I just wondered if people are aware of the ISSF Academy and it's schemes for licencing coaches.

Interesting... Does anyone know whether USAS makes use of this program?

yes, I know Janet and Marcus Raab are both graduates of it, and lat December Marvin Spinks and another lady from the shotgun side had just graduated and flew straight from Finland to the Coaches conference at the OTC.

[Steve Swartz]

USAS/NRA/CMP have collaborated on a coaching training and certification system. SOme of hte materials are NRA/USAS, and some of the materials are available through the ASEP.

I am going through it now- hope to be Level III certified here before too long. It's actually pretty good stuff; thought provoking for both coaches and competitors. Oh yeah and "Never Was's" through "Wannabes" as well if you ascribe to that way of thinking.

[2650 Plus]

Speaking of " never was and wannabe :we should not over look the" has beens" I expect this describes more of us than we would like to admit. Never the less we are the foundation for the next generation and hopefully we can leave enough tracks in the sand so they are not left to relearn what we have descovered and re descovered through a lot of hard work and in my case a hefty dose of hard headiness. Good Shooting every one. Bill Horton

[Grant]

Ron the problem I have with the "never was" type of coach is the enormous gaps missing in their knoweldge of how we do the shot sequence. They know so little that they are dangerous to even the beginner actually helping he / she to develope bad habits that they may never be able to overcome. So , what are the minimum requirements we should expect of a coach for the begining shooter. First a clear understanding of the fundamentals .Next the ability to explain the fundamentals correctly over and over and avoid confusing the beginner with conflicting information. Third enough shooting skill so as to cause the student to have a high level of confidence in the information he is providing. He must also teach in a totally positive manner , be able to identify error paterns and guide the shooter toward positive correction of the error. Surely there must be more but I am about out of ideas right now, Maybe more later. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Sorry to be so slow, Bill. I have been busy coaching. I am for sure one of your " never was" coaches. I freely admit having been a rifle shooter would have made my chosen task of learning how to coach much easier. It didn't keep me from reaching USAS/NRA Level 3 or from becoming a member of the National Coach Development Staff, however.
I think my high school team that earned the right to represent Virginia in our National Junior Olympics will be surprised that they didn't learn how to shoot from me. Especially the three who never picked up a rifle before this past September when they joined our team and now will shoot in a national championship. They also shoot sporter air rifles that don't come close to fitting their bodies and in sweat shirts and jeans instead of artificial stiffening suits and shoes.
For a coach, I suggest you look for someone with a passion for teaching and a willingness to learn from others better qualified as coaches. Being a super shooter might give a coach instant credibility but earning it as a coach is preferable.

[2650 Plus]

Grant , thank you for your post. My personal experience led me to believe that no one could do what you have described. I once trained a team of youngsters for the JC BB gun matches. At the match I met a gentleman who introduced himself as [ I believe he said class C coach] The team I had trained took the top five places in the state championship and won the team match with a new state record. I asked the man what his discipline was, He said "Oh I am not a shooter, I am a coach."You are to be congratulated on the success of the shooters you helped get on the right track. May you have many more successes if you continue coaching. Something good is happening in the coach training program that did not exist for me. Please take my rather negative experence with the proverbial grain of salt. And congratulations again. Good Shooting and good coaching. The only legitimate measure of the coach is the wins by the shooters he / she has helped along the way. Bill Horton

[2650 Plus]

Grant , thank you for your post. My personal experience led me to believe that no one could do what you have described. I once trained a team of youngsters for the JC BB gun matches. At the match I met a gentleman who introduced himself as [ I believe he said class C coach] The team I had trained took the top five places in the state championship and won the team match with a new state record. I asked the man what his discipline was, He said "Oh I am not a shooter, I am a coach."You are to be congratulated on the success of the shooters you helped get on the right track. May you have many more successes if you continue coaching. Something good is happening in the coach training program that did not exist for me. Please take my rather negative experence with the proverbial grain of salt. And congratulations again. Good Shooting and good coaching. The only legitimate measure of the coach is the wins by the shooters he / she has helped along the way. Bill Horton

[Richard H]

Bill you base you're whole opinion on coaches based on your experience with one guy?

What about all the football, baseball, hockey, basketball, golf, swimming, gymnastic, cycling and all the other sports that have been coached by individuals that have not won the World Series, Superbowls, Stanley Cups, World Championships, Major Championships, Tour de Frances, Olympic Medals ect., yet their athletes or teams have gone on to win these events. If you looked, the vast majority of coaches have not competed at the top of their respective sports, can't see why shooting is any different. Some top athletes may make good coaches some will make terrible coaches. The skills required to compete and those required to coach are vastly different and few will have both skill sets.

[2650 Plus]

No, I do not base my relationship with one coach as the basis for my opinion on this subject, and taking one statement out of context does not reflect correctly the gist of what I'm sayng. I once had a coach named Kenneth P. Dunn who was head and shoulders above many of the pretenders functioning as coaches on other teams. His training put those of us , trained by him , in a position to dominate our contemporaries to the point where we held national team records and this was when Blankenship was shooting for All Army at what was then the AMU. My issue is with the vast multitude of pretenders that have never been able to produce a winner, and the less than correct information they pass on to their students, often ingraining bad habits that the shooter is never able to overcome. Steve has written a basic training program for coaches to use in training beginners that is truly outstanding. I highly recommend it for any coach that is training for the foundation so vital to continued advancment in competition shooting. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[BPBrinson]

[2650 Plus]

I forgot to mention that K.P. Dunn was generally the high shooter in the matches .Several times I was able to shoot higher scores than him but none of us could consistantly beat him. Good Shooting Bill Horton P.S. Gotcha Mr Crawfish

[ASA]

.. My issue is with the vast multitude of pretenders that have never been able to produce a winner, and the less than correct information they pass on to their students, often ingraining bad habits that the shooter is never able to overcome...

I tried to connect your issue with my personal experience. However, I failed: After 25 year of shooting in 5 different regions of Germany in five different shooting clubs I cannot identify one person that would fit your description of a pretender.
On the other hand: I cannot say that these pretenders do not exist - maybe I am surrounded by them and it is just my attitude that prevents them from approaching me.
Quite puzzled
Axel