Brian
I am new to NRA BE shooting, but not new to BE shooting - I shoot more Free Pistol and Air Pistol. I am finding the Rapid Fire portion of the NRA matches to be quite challenging from a recoil mgt standpoint with a 45. My problem may be in the pistol as it’s a near stock 1911 GI pistol, with a fitted bull barrel and target sights. It maybe that I’m so used to shooting 22lr in the ISSF events that shooting the 45 is a “shock”. My slow fire scores and group are good, and my Timed can be as good as my Slow fire, but not always.
I am curious to know if top shooters are adding addition weight to the gun to reduce muzzle flip, or simple when they add a scope and mount the addition weight reduces muzzle flip. Do the recoil mgt devices really make a difference?
I’m open to all suggestions,
Brian
Rapid Fire Series with a 45
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Brian James
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Steve Swartz
Re: Rapid Fire Series with a 45
While I'm hardly a top shooter, "recoil management devices" are pretty rare in Bullseye. Make sure your Natural Point of Aim is aligned with the target, and keep the trigger moving!Brian James wrote: I am curious to know if top shooters are adding addition weight to the gun to reduce muzzle flip, or simple when they add a scope and mount the addition weight reduces muzzle flip. Do the recoil mgt devices really make a difference?
I’m open to all suggestions,
Brian
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harryreeves
RF with 45
Unless we're shooting Service Pistol matches, we shoot "light" target loads with the .45. With "ball" (FMJ factory) ammo, RF is quite challenging.
A decent to good score with 45 wad (semi-wadcutter, ligth loads) is 95 to 98, with pretty darned good being 99 to 100. But even 99 and 100 are pretty commonplace with High Masters, Masters, and sometimes Experts.
With a Service Pistol shooting 230gr FMJ, decent to good might be 88 to 94. And pretty darned good would be 95 to 98. Really good would be 99 or 100.
As a High Master who doesn't shoot much Service Pistol any more, I shoot lots of 99s with the wadgun and more like a 92 with the Service Pistol. Back when I shot more Service Pistol, I might shoot 94's or 95's.
There's a big difference.
A decent to good score with 45 wad (semi-wadcutter, ligth loads) is 95 to 98, with pretty darned good being 99 to 100. But even 99 and 100 are pretty commonplace with High Masters, Masters, and sometimes Experts.
With a Service Pistol shooting 230gr FMJ, decent to good might be 88 to 94. And pretty darned good would be 95 to 98. Really good would be 99 or 100.
As a High Master who doesn't shoot much Service Pistol any more, I shoot lots of 99s with the wadgun and more like a 92 with the Service Pistol. Back when I shot more Service Pistol, I might shoot 94's or 95's.
There's a big difference.
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Steve Swartz
Another helpful tip just struck me.
"Pyramid Drills" can be very useful in this regard.
Set up for ten second strings.
A) In ten seconds, shoot once as the target turns and recover up to acquiring and aligning the sights and putting pressure on the trigger. This is the "One Shot Drill." When you can shoot a ten twice in a row, move up to step B.
B) In ten seconds, shoot once as the target turns and recover; this time take the second shot and recover up to acquiring/alinging the sights and applying pressure on the trigger. This is a "Two Shot Drill." When you can shoot two tens, twice in a row, move up to step C.
C) Three shot drill. When you can shoot three tens, twice in a row, move up to D.
D) Four shot drill. When you can shoot four tens, twice in a row, move up to E.
E) Five shot drill. Etc.
F) Six shot drill.
The key is this- you need to work on your RECOVERY ability which includes:
- Follow through; physical and mental
- Loading and holding trigger
- Rapid sight acquisition
- Rapid and smooth settle to aiming area
Finally, in order to add another shot to the string, your recovery process must include the critical last one (two) steps
- Simultaneously with smooth entry into the aiming area, initiate the shot release with perfect alignment while
- Executing perfect trigger control
Steve
"Pyramid Drills" can be very useful in this regard.
Set up for ten second strings.
A) In ten seconds, shoot once as the target turns and recover up to acquiring and aligning the sights and putting pressure on the trigger. This is the "One Shot Drill." When you can shoot a ten twice in a row, move up to step B.
B) In ten seconds, shoot once as the target turns and recover; this time take the second shot and recover up to acquiring/alinging the sights and applying pressure on the trigger. This is a "Two Shot Drill." When you can shoot two tens, twice in a row, move up to step C.
C) Three shot drill. When you can shoot three tens, twice in a row, move up to D.
D) Four shot drill. When you can shoot four tens, twice in a row, move up to E.
E) Five shot drill. Etc.
F) Six shot drill.
The key is this- you need to work on your RECOVERY ability which includes:
- Follow through; physical and mental
- Loading and holding trigger
- Rapid sight acquisition
- Rapid and smooth settle to aiming area
Finally, in order to add another shot to the string, your recovery process must include the critical last one (two) steps
- Simultaneously with smooth entry into the aiming area, initiate the shot release with perfect alignment while
- Executing perfect trigger control
Steve
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Steve Swartz
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Brian James
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
I appreciate everyone's responses, I likley need to grip the pistol firmer, as it slides in my hand (using a Rink grip), as well, I need to lower my trigger weight down given its a 5lbs. Lastly, I am surprised that people aren't using either additional weight on their pistols or using recoil mgt devices.
Brian
Brian
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Brian James
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
I appreciate everyone's responses, I likley need to grip the pistol firmer, as it slides in my hand (using a Rink grip), as well, I need to lower my trigger weight down given its a 5lbs. Lastly, I am surprised that people aren't using either additional weight on their pistols or using recoil mgt devices.
Brian
Brian
I am new at this also. I am used to shooting master scores in Free and Air and now struggle to hit the black all the time in BE. I have been dry firing a lot but for sustained fire that only goes so far
A common thing I have heard is use the slabs on the grip that come stock on the 45 are better. I think you can get a better grip and thus control the recoil more. get some putty that is made to strengthen your grip. This is far better than any other item that is sold to improve your grip strength. It will also allow you to do many more exercises. you can find some if you look up climbing gear for rock climbing. the bullseye-L forum is a good spot to pick up some tips. i have not spent any time going through the archives yet. It is not like a forum like this... you get an email...well several a day and it can take some time to get use to it. But I have learned a lot.
From an old timer. His advice was that you need a good load to shoot 50yds. you need to test your pistol with several loads and find what works best for you and your pistol. On the short line any thing will work and shoot good groups. He tested down to 3.2 gr of Bullseye with a standard slide and iron sights. he recommended to get a spare spring and take some ammo to the range and test and clip coils from the spring until it functions. He recommend not to more more than 2-3 coils sticking out of the end of the pistol. I have not tried this yet. But my plan was to start with 10# spring and see if my pistols cycles if not clip coils until it does and I also have a 12# spring to take and use if the 10# does not work. Currently I am using a 3.6gr and a 185 gr SWC for short line.
A common thing I have heard is use the slabs on the grip that come stock on the 45 are better. I think you can get a better grip and thus control the recoil more. get some putty that is made to strengthen your grip. This is far better than any other item that is sold to improve your grip strength. It will also allow you to do many more exercises. you can find some if you look up climbing gear for rock climbing. the bullseye-L forum is a good spot to pick up some tips. i have not spent any time going through the archives yet. It is not like a forum like this... you get an email...well several a day and it can take some time to get use to it. But I have learned a lot.
From an old timer. His advice was that you need a good load to shoot 50yds. you need to test your pistol with several loads and find what works best for you and your pistol. On the short line any thing will work and shoot good groups. He tested down to 3.2 gr of Bullseye with a standard slide and iron sights. he recommended to get a spare spring and take some ammo to the range and test and clip coils from the spring until it functions. He recommend not to more more than 2-3 coils sticking out of the end of the pistol. I have not tried this yet. But my plan was to start with 10# spring and see if my pistols cycles if not clip coils until it does and I also have a 12# spring to take and use if the 10# does not work. Currently I am using a 3.6gr and a 185 gr SWC for short line.
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2650 Plus
Sustained fire with the 45
Already having been mentioned, Its worth repeating. The trigger has to weigh over 3&1/2 pounds and you can be very agressive with initial pressure and a very early start on applying steadily increasing pressure. You should practice with turning targets and break your first shot as the target turns. Steve mentioned shooting tens before moveing on to more than one shot. I recommend training until you can skid tens into the target on the first shot before moving on to the multi shot drills. This is for 10 seconds strings only as the 20 second timed fire strings are not particularly challenging. Next commit to applying steadily increasing pressure while still in recoil and keep the finger moving while you recover and begin perfecting sight allignment. Problems arrise when you have recovered , perfected sight allignment and the pistol still has not fired. Time must never enter into the mind during the five shot string and if it does you are doing something very wrong. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Brian James
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:59 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
Turning Target DVD
I produced a Turning Target Practice DVD for either TV or Computer Screen use in Dry Fire.
The DVD has NRA, International and Police course targets and has one shot drills as well. If you use a revolver, you can practice full strings; if you have an electronic trigger such as the MG2E one can also practice full strings.
Those who have purchased and used the DVD have significantly improved their Time and Rapid Fire scores.
If anyone is interested, send me a PM and I will advise cost and shipping.
Tillman in Florida
The DVD has NRA, International and Police course targets and has one shot drills as well. If you use a revolver, you can practice full strings; if you have an electronic trigger such as the MG2E one can also practice full strings.
Those who have purchased and used the DVD have significantly improved their Time and Rapid Fire scores.
If anyone is interested, send me a PM and I will advise cost and shipping.
Tillman in Florida
Re: Sustained fire with the 45
Bill,2650 Plus wrote:... keep the finger moving while you recover and begin perfecting sight allignment.
I've often seen and heard that advice. I wonder if you could explain more fully what it means. I have a crisp trigger with no movement in it before it breaks. So, unless I take my finger off of the trigger between shots, or unless you are talking about compressing the pad of the finger, which requires very little force to get to the point where it stops due to being fully compressed (I actually use my first joint, which compresses very little, if at all) I don't see how I can keep my finger 'moving'.
Regards,
Al B.
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2650 Plus
Trigger control for rapid fire
I think of trigger control as follows . Most of us have seen the front sight dart out of allignment from a sudden increase in the rate of pressure being applied. By spreading out the pressure increase we avoid sudden pressure variations and minimize disturbance of the alligned sights . The key to successful rapid fire string seems to be in applying smoothe steadily increasing pressure , recovery into the aiming area , steading the pistol and realligning the sight before the pistol fires the next shot. If your pistol is firing to quickly reduce the ammount of initial pressure and spread out the time of pressure increase slightly. I dont want to mislead you but evey fiber of your body will resist applying pressure during recovery. One day , out of desperation you will toss out every bit of the I can't do this and fire the round over the target. That is usually the first and best indication that you have actually begun the pressure properly. Stop Right there and tell yourself " thats how I do this " Just remember Bill Blankenships' admonition." Get the sights alligned because the pistol is going to fire." Good Shooting Bill Horton
"unique" guest
In regards the DVD... I had previously posted in the Buy/Sell area. In this instance, I thought (and still think) that it is germane to the discussion. I cannot give a personal reply since "unique" is a guest.
Perhaps I should post in the B/S/T section and make a referral to that area. It seems more simple to just make the comment in the context of the discussion.
Also, 2650 Plus makes reference to Blankenship and that is an accurate statement... get the sights in place because the gun IS going to go off. Basically (and I think 2650 alluded to this) if you can get a skidder into the 10/X ring as the target is turning you then have over 9 seconds for the last four shots.
Tillman
Perhaps I should post in the B/S/T section and make a referral to that area. It seems more simple to just make the comment in the context of the discussion.
Also, 2650 Plus makes reference to Blankenship and that is an accurate statement... get the sights in place because the gun IS going to go off. Basically (and I think 2650 alluded to this) if you can get a skidder into the 10/X ring as the target is turning you then have over 9 seconds for the last four shots.
Tillman
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I am not experienced in the .45, however, Warren's trigger article refers to Standard Pistol trigger technique that I plan to use when I get shooting the .45:
It was not until I was being taught (by a coach from Belarus) how to cycle the trigger in Standard Pistol that I understood their whole philosophy of trigger control. He was most annoyed at my habit of flicking my trigger finger to take the first stage for the next shot while I was still under recoil from the previous shot. He made me maintain trigger pressure while under recoil (and therefore in follow through), and I was not to release the trigger and start on the next shot until I had regained the aiming area. This was HARD as it broke habits of fifteen years or more. But what I started to achieve was a POSITIVE release for each shot as it was so much easier not to freeze on the trigger. Far from causing me to panic about wasting time it provided the basis for a smooth rhythm and deliberate shot-by-shot control.
Article:
http://www.pilkguns.com/c5.shtml
Ben
It was not until I was being taught (by a coach from Belarus) how to cycle the trigger in Standard Pistol that I understood their whole philosophy of trigger control. He was most annoyed at my habit of flicking my trigger finger to take the first stage for the next shot while I was still under recoil from the previous shot. He made me maintain trigger pressure while under recoil (and therefore in follow through), and I was not to release the trigger and start on the next shot until I had regained the aiming area. This was HARD as it broke habits of fifteen years or more. But what I started to achieve was a POSITIVE release for each shot as it was so much easier not to freeze on the trigger. Far from causing me to panic about wasting time it provided the basis for a smooth rhythm and deliberate shot-by-shot control.
Article:
http://www.pilkguns.com/c5.shtml
Ben
Last edited by Freepistol on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Tillman:
Hmmm the whole thread belongs back up in Pistol (I wondered where it went!) but maybe the point was about the advertising segment of it (two posts out of the whole thread?).
Freepistol:
Please clarify what you are describing? I think you have an important (but maybe subtle) point about the difference between recovery and follow through but I'm not sure what you are saying exactly?
Hmmm the whole thread belongs back up in Pistol (I wondered where it went!) but maybe the point was about the advertising segment of it (two posts out of the whole thread?).
Freepistol:
Please clarify what you are describing? I think you have an important (but maybe subtle) point about the difference between recovery and follow through but I'm not sure what you are saying exactly?