Best CA 10 Meter rifle?

pwh · Post by **pwh** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:04 pm

OK….a somewhat pretty general question here but I’ll go for it nonetheless.
What in your consideration is the best 10 Meter CA rifle on the market?
I have a pristine condition FWB 300S Universal but I’ve been thinking of purchasing a 10 Meter CA rifle.
Are the CA’s all that great and in general use in 10 Meter shooting now? I have not been shooting in 28 years and am somewhat new to all that is going on now with 10 Meter rifles. Would I be better off with a new FWB spring action? I’m really interested in the CA’s but I’m not at all sure what there plus and minus’s are.
Mind you…..I’m only talking about 10 Meter target shooting and not plinking and am only interested in accuracy as opposed to punch!

~Phil

Tripper · Post by **Tripper** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:54 pm

The compressed air rifles are definitely easier to use. But the extra work and expense of keeping a scuba tank filled may not be what you want to fool with.

I don't think FWB makes a current spring match rifle. They do make a single pump compressed air rifle that is very nice indeed. No scuba tanks, fittings needed.

GaryN · Post by **GaryN** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:28 am

Hi Phil
Gald to see you got to TargetTalk

Here are a few to drool on and places to look at:

http://www.pilkguns.com/precisionar.shtml
http://www.nealjguns.com/ss_store/Preci ... ifles.html
http://www.centershot.com/
http://www.championshooters.com

I know there are several other competition dealers.

Gary

Hip's Ax · Post by **Hip's Ax** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:32 am

The CA's are much more pleasant to use, with that said I think the older manual models shoot just as good. I replaced my RWS 75 only a few years ago.

I have a Walther LG300 but thats because I got a great deal on it slightly used. You will see many Anschutz AR's on the line but also a good number of FWB 700's. If I were to buy a new CA I'd get the FWB 700 for no other reason than they look so cool! They win a lot as well as do the Anschutz's.

If you spring for a large 80 cu ft scuba tank they last quite a long time between fills. I started out with a "pony" scuba tank and had to take it to the shop rather often. Since I got an 80 cu ft tank I haven't taken it back once but I think it is time now. I shoot 3 AR matches each winter and 1 in the summer and figure I practice another 8 times so I got 24 fill ups before I noticed any difference in the gauge reading. Not certain how long could actually be gotten between scuba tank fills because as soon as I see a difference in the AR tank gauge I take it back for a fill.

Check the new AR prices, I think you might be shocked.

Rutty · Post by **Rutty** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:00 am

I don't think FWB makes a current spring match rifle. They do make a single pump compressed air rifle that is very nice indeed.

FWB haven't made a spring powered match rifle for many years and they have just announced the cessation of production of the single stoke pneumatic FWB603. So, if you fancy one of these hurry up and you may just get one of the last ones.

Rutty

enricovolante · Post by **enricovolante** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:29 am

I've been using the FWB 700 for a while and here are my considerations:

- It looks cool, but it doesn't really matter at the end
- It has a lot of adjustable settings, probably too many and beginner can be mislead if not closely followed by a good trainer
- The price is more reasonable compared to the other manufacturer
- With a filled tank I can shoot up to 250 rounds (refilling can be performed by a manual pump)

Considering the above I believe it is really hard to say which CA is the best, nowadays all the Northern alps manufactures are good and at same quality level.
The only thing I may suggest is to try them all and simply choose the one that fit better to your body.
When I choose my FWB 700 I had also to purchase the shooting jacket, trousers and boots, therefore saving on the CA allowed me to complete all my shooting equipment without a bank loan!

pwh · Post by **pwh** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:22 pm

Ok….thanks for all the great and friendly input and opinions. Now, I’m going to push your anticipated patience a tad further and ask for more so please forgive me in advance for all the bothersome questions I’m about to place forth here.

It seems that the more I look into CA rifles the more I’m getting confused as to the charging requirements. I went straight to the Beeman site and found this:

*Beeman recommends only using a SCUBA tank for filling, any damage caused by
other means of filling will not be covered under warranty

The idea of a SCUBA tank seems somewhat out of the question. Being in Chicago there is not exactly a plethora of SCUBA stores and I don’t at all care for the idea of dragging a tank to one just to get it filled. Hell, I’m not all that crazy about the trouble of having my Propane tank filled for the outdoor grill at times!

Herein lays one of my many questions. Can a CA rifle indeed be filled by means of a hand pump? I have seen several but I’m a tad confused about them and their capability of doing the needed job. Champions choice sells one; http://www.champchoice.com/shop.php?act ... mit=Search

As well does Pyramid Air Guns; http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/acces ... sory_id=81
The ones offered at Pyramid rally have me confused as to having a pump for, ShinSung rifles, Sam Tang and Air Force rifles!?

The one offered at Champions Choice makes no reference whatsoever as to what gun it’s for. If a CA cylinder can be filled by a hand pump I realize of course that it would take some effort to do so but no problem. If they can indeed be filled by an air pump would the one at Champions Choice do the job and if so must a special adapter be purchased for whatever specific rifle is used? Such as this for a FWB P700: http://www.champchoice.com/detail.php?item=18770012

Would that indeed be the adapter needed? If the cylinder can be charged by means of a hand pump I suppose I could by an extra cylinder just to have one extra that is already charged. Again, if the cylinders for a CA rifle can be charged by a hand pump which one would you recommend?

Now…let’s get aside from the CA’s here for a moment. If by chance a CA cylinder cannot be filled by means of a hand pump and I opted for a FWB 603 would you consider that the next best possible choice? I can’t for the life of me remember the cocking effort in pounds as to the FWB 300S albeit it is quite easy. It seems that the cocking effort of the FWB 603 is 19lbs. Is this more than the old spring FWB 300S and if so is it that more of an effort? Also, is the recoil of a 603 more than that of a 300S?

Just another point (question) here if by chance you know. The last time I purchased an air rifle was directly from Beeman’s and that was back in ’79. They shipped it directly to me and I live in Chicago, Illinois. Do most dealers, such as Straight Shooters, still ship air guns to my location? I used to do quite a bit of center fire pistol shooting but sold all of my guns and no longer have a fire arms card and I would hate the hassle of obtaining another one and then having to go to the trouble of having a gun shipped to a fire arms dealer to be picked up. Can anyone shed some light on this?

So, the bottom line would be this. If I were to purchase a CA it would probably be the FWB P700 with the laminate stock (AL is a tad too expensive and the laminate looks just fine to me).

To surmise up my most pertinent questions and those I would appreciate an answer to before shell out the big bucks!

If indeed a hand pump can do the job which specifically would you recommend?

If a hand pump can be used just how much trouble is involved?

Exactly what adapter would I need to purchase?

Will the P700 take my beautiful set of Gehmann front and rear polarized sights?

How many shot’s can one expect from a charged cylinder?

If I opted for the FWB 603 would you consider that the next best choice?

Is the cocking effort much more than a FWB 300S?

Same question as for the sights?

Are both the FWB 603 and FWB P700 in the same category as for accuracy?

Is the FWB 603 recoil more than that of the FWB 300S?

Is it true that the FWB 603 is to be discontinued?

Any input as to having an air gun shipped directly to me considering my location?

I'll freely admit that I (obviously!) would like to go with a CA as I already have a lever action rifle (FWB300s) and would like to go with something different. Yes, I realize that the P700 has more than it's share of bells and whistles but it's almost akin to someone wanting a Maserati when they know damn well they will never have a chance to get it up to 200+MPH! Its just the knowing that you can!

My apologies if the questions are somewhat repetitive and or, have been answered already but I typed this up on Microsoft Word last night and was just too lazy to edit it all.
Again….my thanks for all of your kind patience and anticipated answers to all of my questions.

~Regards, Phil

Hip's Ax · Post by **Hip's Ax** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:28 pm

Looks like Chicago is in the same boat as us here in New Jersey. I need to have an FID card for even a BB gun.

Scuba air is very dry, hand pumps will introduce moisture into your cylinder. I didn't like the idea of having a Scuba tank around either but I found a good Scuba shop, explained exactly what I was doing and bought the tank from them. They even give me free top offs sometimes and ask me how my shooting is going.

I've seen guys charge with a hand pump, its a lot of work.

I will assume your Gehmann iris will fit the rear sight fine but I cannot swear it will fit the front. My Walther is different as far as the front sight goes than an Anschutz etc. While I would never consider shooting outdoors without my color filters and polarizer I find it unnecessary indoors, I don't even have an adjustable iris on my air rifle, yet anyway.

Sorry, can't help with the rest of the questions.

pwh · Post by **pwh** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:35 pm

Supposedly the pump made by Hill takes care of all moisture. I'd rather stay away from the SCUBA tank and all the hassle that it involves. By being a lot of work with a hand pump just what is "a lot of work"? Exhausting, very time involved, etc.?

~Regards, Phil

enricovolante · Post by **enricovolante** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:24 am

pwh wrote:
If indeed a hand pump can do the job which specifically would you recommend?

Any pump will just work fine, as far as I know all of them are produced by the same manufacturer and commercialized with different names

If a hand pump can be used just how much trouble is involved?

Moisture, but it can be easily solved by allowing the pump to cool down and regularly vent part of the air by the dedicated valve. I usually pump 15 times and wait for a minute or so. Then I pump again another 15 times and drain some air by the bottom valve. All process can take up to 20 minutes

Exactly what adapter would I need to purchase?

Adapter comes with the pump but I'm not really sure, ask your shop

Will the P700 take my beautiful set of Gehmann front and rear polarized sights?

Absolutely, but be careful, CA is an indor activity and lighting is regulated by the ISSF rules therefore it is constant. For this reason you do not need any polarizer. What you need is a simple iris (save money)

How many shot’s can one expect from a charged cylinder?

Around 250 more than enough for a 2 session training (100 shots each)

pdeal · Post by **pdeal** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:45 am

SCUBA is best the air has to be dryer than from a hand pump. A hand pump can be used though we have done it. From what I have seen the Hill pump, sold by the host of this board, is one of the best. I think the secret to making the pump work is to pump the cylinder back up after shooting each time. It makes a good post training work out.

Tripper · Post by **Tripper** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:26 am

Even though my earlier post mentioned the hassle of scuba tanks, fittings, etc.....

That's what I use, and here in Omaha I haven't had any problem finding a scuba shop to fill the tank. I bought a new 80 cu. ft. tank from a shop and they said they sell lots of tanks to schools and ROTC programs in the area. (My son is a Fireman and he fills the scuba tank for me.)

I have a AHG 2002 CA and the FWB P70 and I tried the pump deal. Not for me, but since I am a closet survivalist, I kept the pump anyway!

SO...if It were me, I would either find a nice 601 or new 603 and forget about a CA rifle,

OR better yet ... get the P700 and a tank and never look back.

Re: effort to pump/cock the 603 compared to the 300S - The 300s effort is throughout the opening cycle, the 603 effort is at the end of the cycle, so I feel the 603 is easier to "operate" than the 300s.

I also think the 603 has an easier "operation" where you open the pump lever and close it without letting go. Then load and fire. The 300S has more hand movement, from lever, to pellets to load to lever.

I watched an Olympian shoot a 601 and he kept his triggerhand on the stock and used his offhand to cock and load. He used a rife stand to rest the rifle between shots.

And PDeal is correct, use the hand pump to top off the cylinder after a session. I also use it now and then if my main SCUBA tank is below 2400 psi to top the rifle cylinder.

OR you could just keep and shoot your 300S...

Rutty · Post by **Rutty** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:34 am

I am a little surprised about the reluctance to have a diving cylinder (UK speak for SCUBA tank). Over here they are definitely the preferred source of air supply, for a sole user you would be unlikely to need your cylinder refilled at more than 18-24 month intervals. Our club cylinder that serves 6 rifles and a number of pistols usually lasts 9-12 months. The Field Target fraternity do use smaller purpose made cylinders, but unless you need the portability I cannot see that the additional cost is justified. As to some of the questions you posed:

Will the P700 take my beautiful set of Gehmann front and rear polarized sights?

Probably, but I would check

How many shot’s can one expect from a charged cylinder?

About 250-300

If I opted for the FWB 603 would you consider that the next best choice?

Personally yes, but that's highly subjective

Is the cocking effort much more than a FWB 300S?

Yes, but it's not excessive

Are both the FWB 603 and FWB P700 in the same category as for accuracy?

Off the bench you probably would not see much difference. However the CA shooter is not expending effort cocking his rifle 60+ times and will be able to use a stand to rest it on between shots. Most people reckon that this is worth a few points over a 60 shot series.

Is the FWB 603 recoil more than that of the FWB 300S?

I haven't used a 603, my FWB was a 601, but I did have a 300SU. The 603 will recoil less than your 300S

Is it true that the FWB 603 is to be discontinued?

According to the UK agent following the IWA 2008 Fair in Nurnberg

Rutty

enricovolante · Post by **enricovolante** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:10 am

Hello rutty,

Scuba tank is the best solution since you get dry air out of it and you don't have to pump every other day to fill your CA.
But as you said it is the best solution for clubs.
As individual I would have some trouble in stocking the tank somewhere in my house, not to mention my wife's disagreement!

Nevertheless, I thought that scuba tanks have to be inspected and hydro tested every 2 years or so (I can't remember).

Rutty · Post by **Rutty** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:25 am

Nevertheless, I thought that scuba tanks have to be inspected and hydro tested every 2 years or so (I can't remember).

2 years 6 months IIRC. But as an individual if you only need to refill the tank every 18-24 month or so and if you time your last fill to be just before the 30 month inspection is due then you only have to have it inspected every approx every 48 months. Inspection in the UK is not expensive, about 50 Euros.

Rutty

Hip's Ax · Post by **Hip's Ax** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:10 pm

Here in the US the Scuba tanks needs to have a visual inspection every year and a hydro test every five years.

Of course if you don't bring it in for a fill there is no inspection.

Hip's Ax · Post by **Hip's Ax** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:12 pm

Rutty wrote:
Nevertheless, I thought that scuba tanks have to be inspected and hydro tested every 2 years or so (I can't remember).
2 years 6 months IIRC. But as an individual if you only need to refill the tank every 18-24 month or so and if you time your last fill to be just before the 30 month inspection is due then you only have to have it inspected every approx every 48 months. Inspection in the UK is not expensive, about 50 Euros.

Rutty

I thought the UK was still on the Pound Sterling?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:35 pm

We do still use £, not euros yet. I think Rutty quoted the price in € for Ericvolante, since much of continental Europe uses this, Though I think Eric is Swiss and non-EU.

Tim S

Exeter UK

P.S. Rutty, how's the Gemini bit working?

Hip's Ax · Post by **Hip's Ax** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:48 pm

Yeah, now my brain really hurts. Switzerland is still on the Franc.

Rutty · Post by **Rutty** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:04 pm

Euros, Sterling, Dollars, Swiss Francs, I'll take them all!

P.S. Rutty, how's the Gemini bit working?

Very well thanks.

UK testing regime for cylinders visual every 30 months, hydro test at 60 months.

Rutty