From the FWIW Department,
I read all the posts quickly, so I hope I'm not redundant here. First I'll say that I am a convert to teaching the standing position first. I didn't always do it this way. Marcus and others influenced this change. Having said that, a couple more things I do that have worked pretty well...
1. Teach a little bit at a time. Don't dump truck the kids.
2. Teach the fundamentals of the position WITHOUT the rifle first, then add the rifle.
3. Then flip a BMC target backwards and let them shoot a blank piece of paper. They're shooting, but only to get comfortable with the position. "Just shoot the paper".
3. Then use the target side of a BMC target (available from the CMP). It makes it possible for new athletes to stay within the scoring rings. This is a good motivator for new shooting athletes, especially younger ones.
Ideas needed to teach Standing(Off Hand)
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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David W. Johnson
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Assuming the kids are old enough and have the basics; here are a couple of things I have used recently and seen results -
A couple of times per week (more if temperament permits) set up a target in the living room or wherever at about 10M. Put on the coat and glove. Pick up the rifle, get several good breaths and see how long you can hold the sights in the black (or at a 8 or better if possible). Since you don't want to hold your breath more than about 8 seconds, being able to go 15 may be excessive. But stop the drill when you can hold it in the black (or better) for the full eight seconds a set number of times. Eventually, you need to be able to hold it as many times as you have record shots (ten or twenty or forty or sixty, depending on your discipline).
Another thing to try on the range is to take a shot or two. Then, let the kids walk away. Let them talk a minute. Then, they go back to the line and take a couple more shots. The key here is to find NPA every time they resume the line. This is targeted at the problem I see kids having with NPA. They just skip it. I can look at their targets afterwards and tell. I ask them if they found their NPA on a certain row and they admit they did not. Shoot a standing match with them walking away and socializing every couple of shots. Fun and good training.
Also, they need goals so they don't get discouraged. First goal is to score with each shot, or maybe only two shots fail to score per sheet or some such. Then, you want every shot in the black. Then...you get it.
Still another trick is to save really good shots. Cut the target out of the sheet. Write on the back the position and date fired. Tape it in the rifle case, ammo box or some such. Remind the kids what they are capable of so they can get in their heads how very possible it is for them to excell.
Hope something in there helps.
Dave.
A couple of times per week (more if temperament permits) set up a target in the living room or wherever at about 10M. Put on the coat and glove. Pick up the rifle, get several good breaths and see how long you can hold the sights in the black (or at a 8 or better if possible). Since you don't want to hold your breath more than about 8 seconds, being able to go 15 may be excessive. But stop the drill when you can hold it in the black (or better) for the full eight seconds a set number of times. Eventually, you need to be able to hold it as many times as you have record shots (ten or twenty or forty or sixty, depending on your discipline).
Another thing to try on the range is to take a shot or two. Then, let the kids walk away. Let them talk a minute. Then, they go back to the line and take a couple more shots. The key here is to find NPA every time they resume the line. This is targeted at the problem I see kids having with NPA. They just skip it. I can look at their targets afterwards and tell. I ask them if they found their NPA on a certain row and they admit they did not. Shoot a standing match with them walking away and socializing every couple of shots. Fun and good training.
Also, they need goals so they don't get discouraged. First goal is to score with each shot, or maybe only two shots fail to score per sheet or some such. Then, you want every shot in the black. Then...you get it.
Still another trick is to save really good shots. Cut the target out of the sheet. Write on the back the position and date fired. Tape it in the rifle case, ammo box or some such. Remind the kids what they are capable of so they can get in their heads how very possible it is for them to excell.
Hope something in there helps.
Dave.
You could also have examples of a shooters first target and their current target. This reminds them of how far they have come, and when looking at others how much others have improved.
I used to tell people that when I first shot AR, I was struggling to just keep all my shots inside the 1-ring. Thats right I said the ONE ring. After a couple months of coaching, I was keeping 80% inside the black. Plenty good for a weekend casual shooter. But that is an example of showing a person how far they have come.
Picking up a recommendation from someone else. I remember seeing at a match one guy had a target with a deep-10 shot taped inside his pellet box...to remind him what he could do.
BTW, at home, I have some "fun" swinging targets to shoot at to break the monotony of shooting 10-ring targets.
I used to tell people that when I first shot AR, I was struggling to just keep all my shots inside the 1-ring. Thats right I said the ONE ring. After a couple months of coaching, I was keeping 80% inside the black. Plenty good for a weekend casual shooter. But that is an example of showing a person how far they have come.
Picking up a recommendation from someone else. I remember seeing at a match one guy had a target with a deep-10 shot taped inside his pellet box...to remind him what he could do.
BTW, at home, I have some "fun" swinging targets to shoot at to break the monotony of shooting 10-ring targets.
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1813benny
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alternate training....
One of the fun methods for alternate training we have started to use are ping pong balls hung from a string on the range.
We have the Jr's take a break every now and then and shoot standing at the ping pong balls. They are about the same size as a 50 ft target and they really take a beating (more than 10 shots) before they are no longer useful.
It gets them to concentrate...especially when we run a "miss and out match". We then point out the fact that if they can hit the ping pong ball 10 times in a row then there is no reason why they can't hit the black every time.
I went through the positions via the old school...prone, sitting, kneeling and finally standing. Looking back, I would not go that route, nor do I coach that way. I prefer prone, standing and then kneeling, and this has worked with my Jr. team thus far.
-Ken Benyo
We have the Jr's take a break every now and then and shoot standing at the ping pong balls. They are about the same size as a 50 ft target and they really take a beating (more than 10 shots) before they are no longer useful.
It gets them to concentrate...especially when we run a "miss and out match". We then point out the fact that if they can hit the ping pong ball 10 times in a row then there is no reason why they can't hit the black every time.
I went through the positions via the old school...prone, sitting, kneeling and finally standing. Looking back, I would not go that route, nor do I coach that way. I prefer prone, standing and then kneeling, and this has worked with my Jr. team thus far.
-Ken Benyo
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David W. Johnson
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bellyshooter
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- Location: Rhode Island
Standing for young shooters
Having coached juniors for 23 years now, I have tried a variety of means to work with young shooters in the standing position. Like most older shooters, I also began my shooting career in prone. As a result, I'm pretty good at it, but never became equally competitive in standing. I've taught standing first to my juniors for about 15 years now. The results have been markedly superior to the other way.
I agree with several of the already stated comments. The use of a training sized target, larger apertures, guns that fit are probably the most important equipment issues.
One area not addressed was physical training. If a kid has well developed quads and ankles he/she will find that holding still in the standing position is much easier. My daughter, 10, is an avid hockey player and has quads of steel. She also shoots standing targets in the low to mid 80's with a precision airgun. Her 3P Air scores are in the 540's.
That leads to the second issue that really wasn't addressed. Many folks pointed out that praising the kids for shots in the black was important. Obviously, that's true. Of even greater import, I think, is instilling the attitude that good shots are attainable and expected. I think too many coaches pass their own fear of standing onto their shooters. Be very careful how you are praising those shots in the black. If you act like standing is so difficult that shooting a 3 is phenomenal, that shooter will have difficulty shooting 7's on a consistent basis. Ratchet up your expectations to be on level with their capabilities, but make it clear that you fully expect that, with practice, their hold will improve. A better hold will produce higher scores. Challenge them. I've seen a lot of very capable young kids stagnate with low scores because everyone around them has convinced them that they're too little to shoot well, or the rifle is too heavy. Look what 9 and 10 year-old gymnasts do. Our shooting athetes can aquire the same kind of balance and agility with practice. Don't let them sell themselves short.
I agree with several of the already stated comments. The use of a training sized target, larger apertures, guns that fit are probably the most important equipment issues.
One area not addressed was physical training. If a kid has well developed quads and ankles he/she will find that holding still in the standing position is much easier. My daughter, 10, is an avid hockey player and has quads of steel. She also shoots standing targets in the low to mid 80's with a precision airgun. Her 3P Air scores are in the 540's.
That leads to the second issue that really wasn't addressed. Many folks pointed out that praising the kids for shots in the black was important. Obviously, that's true. Of even greater import, I think, is instilling the attitude that good shots are attainable and expected. I think too many coaches pass their own fear of standing onto their shooters. Be very careful how you are praising those shots in the black. If you act like standing is so difficult that shooting a 3 is phenomenal, that shooter will have difficulty shooting 7's on a consistent basis. Ratchet up your expectations to be on level with their capabilities, but make it clear that you fully expect that, with practice, their hold will improve. A better hold will produce higher scores. Challenge them. I've seen a lot of very capable young kids stagnate with low scores because everyone around them has convinced them that they're too little to shoot well, or the rifle is too heavy. Look what 9 and 10 year-old gymnasts do. Our shooting athetes can aquire the same kind of balance and agility with practice. Don't let them sell themselves short.
Many good suggestions in this thread, but two items to consider.
First DON"T hold your breath. You should shoot during the "natural repiratory pause" at the end of an exhalation. You chest muscles are at their most relaxed, so you can go longer without the feeling of having to take a breath, and it is the same every time. You cannot hold the same amount of air in your lungs for every shot by letting part of it out. How do you know if it is 49% or 51%.
Also holding some air leads to trying to use breathing for NPA. Bad idea as the mind tells all the body muscles to relax when it tells the trigger finger to move. There went your position. Shooting in the natural respiratory pause is already the most relaxed position.
The second item is one that National Coach Dave Johnson says is the single most inportant thing for an offhand shooter, i.e. dry holding. We find that our juniors understand better what to look for after we have them dry hold (no target) and just watch the front sight. You (and more importantly they) wil be suprised at how well they can hold. Just watch the front sight movement once they get relaxed. Once they see how small they can hold, explain that anything worse than that when they add a target is due to problems with NPA and sow them how to work on that.
be sure to have them go back to this dry hold practice on a regular basis to condition the mind to what it can really do.
First DON"T hold your breath. You should shoot during the "natural repiratory pause" at the end of an exhalation. You chest muscles are at their most relaxed, so you can go longer without the feeling of having to take a breath, and it is the same every time. You cannot hold the same amount of air in your lungs for every shot by letting part of it out. How do you know if it is 49% or 51%.
Also holding some air leads to trying to use breathing for NPA. Bad idea as the mind tells all the body muscles to relax when it tells the trigger finger to move. There went your position. Shooting in the natural respiratory pause is already the most relaxed position.
The second item is one that National Coach Dave Johnson says is the single most inportant thing for an offhand shooter, i.e. dry holding. We find that our juniors understand better what to look for after we have them dry hold (no target) and just watch the front sight. You (and more importantly they) wil be suprised at how well they can hold. Just watch the front sight movement once they get relaxed. Once they see how small they can hold, explain that anything worse than that when they add a target is due to problems with NPA and sow them how to work on that.
be sure to have them go back to this dry hold practice on a regular basis to condition the mind to what it can really do.