Spectator Appeal

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:57 pm

Airknight wrote:Is it an image problem that Shooting Sports suffer from? Might a sassy Ivanovic or Kournikva or Sharapova help?

Not if they wear those un-appealing exoskeleton suits in rifle. Competitively I wish they would go away except for elbow pads.

Sparks · Post by **Sparks** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:08 pm

The problem with them going away is that then you're looking at everyone from junior to masters getting serious back problems.

jackh · Post by **jackh** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:21 pm

Sparks wrote:The problem with them going away is that then you're looking at everyone from junior to masters getting serious back problems.

I did not know there was a medical reason. I shot a lot of NRA Smallbore Outdoor prone in the 70s using an old cloth coat with the usual pads. Never did position shooting. Come to think of it, I did have back surgery last year at LL4-5. Probably from work and age, and not prone.

Which is the position hardest on the back?

Do top shooters typically train by building good abdominals and back muscles?

Sparks · Post by **Sparks** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:35 pm

jackh wrote:Which is the position hardest on the back?

Standing, I would say. It is possible to shoot without injury of course - just as it's possible to weightlift without a belt. It's just not a very good idea.

Do top shooters typically train by building good abdominals and back muscles?

Well, most would. I've seen very few obese people on the line in world cups (though there are of course, exceptions to this).

AAlex · Post by **AAlex** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:04 pm

I've always perceived the "will hurt their backs" argument is bogus. Yes they would hurt their backs if they continued to use those 10kg rifles, just as they would if they used 20kg rifles with the suits.

Anyway the problem isn't the suits but the lack of action.

Sparks · Post by **Sparks** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:42 pm

AAlex wrote:I've always perceived the "will hurt their backs" argument is bogus.

The permanent nerve damage that means that a large part of my right thigh will always feel as numb as your mouth after a trip to the dentist would disagree with you.

Anyway the problem isn't the suits but the lack of action.

I don't think there actually is a lack of action - there's a lack of ability to see the action. It's why people think that archery looks more interesting - you can see the wobble and the stretch more easily and you can almost follow the arrow to the target. It's why people think there's more action in golf - you can see the swing and the hit and the path the golf ball takes and you can watch it bounce and roll around the green. But the wobble in air rifle is (for those better that myself anyway :D ) almost invisible. But strap on a SCATT machine, use a little technological gadgetry, and everyone can watch you wobble back and forth across the nine ring and then nail that 9.9 in the finals and start talking about how crap a shot you are :D

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:35 pm

The current jackets and pants used by rifle shooters come very near the line, if not over the line, or artificial support.

We are supposed to be athletes, included in which is developing and maintaining proper muscles strength to compete.

You may have back problems, which could be due to rifle shooting, just as Bob Foth had shooting related back surgery. However, we have learned new ways to support the rifle in standing without using the old back lean and twist method which put tremnedous pressure on the low back.

This has been a source of great discussion on the world level the past four or five years, with the top shooters being most resistant to change and having "medical specialists" back them up. I suspect much of the consternation among top shooters is the desire to not change anything as long as they are at the top. Maintain the status quo.

With more possibles being shot in air rifle around the world something will have to change. I think shorter time limits and less supportive equipment is prefrable to target changes.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:39 pm

If it was simply a matter of more for a spectator to watch than Skeet and trap would be popular, or IPSC. A scatt would make it more interesting to us, the people who already like shooting, it won't attract throngs of new spectators to the sport. The fact is shooting is a niche sport, as such it will only have a niche market. Then there is the other element working against it "PC", shooting is not now nor will it be anytime in the near or forseeable future politically correct in the eyes a large vocal minority, the silent majority could careless about it.

ky99 · Post by **ky99** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:24 am

Shooting is a sport for someone that likes doing something.Why change it for spectators?

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:42 am

Thats true but the fear is that the ranks of shooting are growing smaller and smaller. If it does get dropped from the Olympics it would be the death of target shooting in many countries (as they are only allowed to do it because of the fact that it is an Olympic Sport).

I'm sure the idea is if more people are watching then maybe more people will try it and then maybe there will be more target shooters.

Airknight · Post by **Airknight** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:49 pm

The winter sport Biathlon, which 'conjoins' skiing with rifle shooting, might show the way if 'low action' shooting sports are to survive in the Olympics. Current disciplines of pistol, rifle and shotgun shooting could stay as they are, but additionally more exciting events which could combine running with shooting might be worth looking at. The idea is to involve more spectators in an action-cum-concentration event which could give an overall boost to shooting sports.

SCATT traces projected in full view of the audience and TV cameras is a great idea too, from a previous post.

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:39 am

Wasn't there talk of a "Summer Biathlon" a while back with running and shooting at metal targets?

My memory is probably faulty but there was a lot of pushback on the idea . . .

Steve

(would love to see a running/falling plates event for pistol)

Fred Mannis · Post by **Fred Mannis** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:55 pm

Steve Swartz wrote: would love to see a running/falling plates event for pistol

You mean like an IPSC match shot with a 22 Marvel conversion on a 45 frame? :-)

Just have to adjust the poppers so that they will fall from a 22 hit rather than a 45.

Freepistol · Post by **Freepistol** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:18 pm

Our local club used to run a biathalon. Runners were not required to carry the rifle and it could be done in relays. I never participated because that was my non-shooting era. My wife's cousin, who runs marathons, wanted me to buddy up with him because he can't shoot. The year we were supposed to have a go, his mother died. I'll have to see if they do that any more.
Thanks for the idea, Steve!
Ben

Steve Swartz · Post by **Steve Swartz** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:37 pm

I actually competed in a (military style) match once where you had to "double time" between firing ranges and shoot. The total score was based on both how quickly you completed the event and how many rounds were fired to "kill" (knock over) each target.

I think it was about a 15 minute/15 target deal where a typical "minimum" score would be 30 (smaller is better) and most scores were somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 minutes/20 rounds.

IIRC it was laid out over about a 5 km course, with 5 banks of three falling plates . . . one at the end of every kilometer. Engaging 10" plates at 15-25m ("unknown distance") with a service pistol.

Man, that was fun! Especially the station where you had to don your gas mask & hood before engaging the targets . . .

Steve

(you could do a similar thing with standard pistols or even air pistols for that matter)

Alex1262 · Post by **Alex1262** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:52 pm

rifle shooting is not, and will never be, a spectator sport for a few reasons. 1- Shooters dont like to be disturbed, and a crowd is defintley disturbing. 2- There's no action involved. Shooting 10's is only exciting if youre pulling the trigger. 3- unless there are cameras on all of the targets, a spectator cant see the hits.

'Action shooting' like 3 gun, bianchi cup etc. Are fun to watch on TV. The old show on OLN 'American Shooter' I think it was called, featured competitions every week which were interesting to watch. They also had the show "PULL!", about sporting clays. that show was pretty cool.

mikeschroeder · Post by **mikeschroeder** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:42 pm

Pat McCoy wrote:The current jackets and pants used by rifle shooters come very near the line, if not over the line, or artificial support.

We are supposed to be athletes, included in which is developing and maintaining proper muscles strength to compete....

Hi

Yes they are SUPPOSED to be athletes, but the current precision shooting leathers ARE artificial support. Allowed artificial support, but artificial anyway. Changing the leathers won't change the sport enough to make it as watchable as for example skating, gymnastics, or skiing.

Shooting is a sport that anyone, at any age can start with and compete in. This includes really out of shape and OLD people. Maybe not Olympic shooting, but close to it. One of our shooting coaches is 78, and switched from shooting Bullseye conventional pistol years ago, and shoots benchrest and OLD rifles. Anyway, the key to keeping shooting successful is to get kids started shooting, safely, and competitively.

Mike
Wichita KS

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:56 pm

ky99 wrote:Shooting is a sport for someone that likes doing something.Why change it for spectators?

Because in this day and age, that's what the olympics organisers want. They want shooting to be more spectator (and TV) friendly so we follow the trend, or shooting gets dropped from the olympics, sooner rather than later (IMHO).

rifle shooting is not, and will never be, a spectator sport for a few reasons. 1- Shooters dont like to be disturbed, and a crowd is defintley disturbing. 2- There's no action involved. Shooting 10's is only exciting if youre pulling the trigger. 3- unless there are cameras on all of the targets, a spectator cant see the hits.

I disagree. There's many ways to make it visibly more exciting for viewers, especially so in the finals ! And most shooters like an audience, and they will get one whatever their preference at any big comps, never mind the likes of the olympics, which attracts thousands.

Rob.

Mike M. · Post by **Mike M.** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:45 pm

As I mentioned previously, I think the key is color commentary, combined with a repeater of the electronic targets. The hard part is arranging for a color commentator who understands the sport.

In some ways, I think shooting is in good shape. Of all the Olympic sports, shooting is the one that draws the most competitors, from the most countries...and with the greatest likelihood of medals going to many different nations. In most sports, there are three to five nations that have seriously competitive athletes, everybody else is there for window dressing.

But we can do better. The ISSF finals allow for a pretty dramatic story, if we can get it told by somebody who knows how. One change that might be considered is to have the finalists shoot in sequence, instead of simultaneously. This would allow the commentary to focus on that one person, instead of being spread out over the entire group.

As for the space suits that the rifle shooters are wearing, I can think of several solutions. One option is to get lighter rifles. A second would be to trade the suits in for a shooting stick.

Or we could just get rid of the rifle events and have more pistol events. :-)

Mike M. · Post by **Mike M.** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:53 pm

I'll add that Mike Schroder made a very good point, one that stands a lot more publicity.

Shooting is the ONE sport that just about everybody can excel in.

Most sports demand an unusual physique. Basketball players must be extremely tall. Gymnasts must be extremely small. Sprinters must have unusually high proportions of fast-twitch muscle. The list is endless.

Shooting? Ah, shooting. There, the competition is mostly mental. A matter of indomitable will, patient practice, and the strength of spirit needed to execute the shot when your knees are shaking. Because I don't care how much you practice, the finals of a World Championship are NOT just another shoot. Not if you want to win.

But it's a sport in which anyone can stay competitive for decades.