Triggers - Single stage or 2-stage for Bullseye?

[MSC]

I handled/dry-fired my first 2-stage trigger tonight (Pardini SP). Having only ever used lower-grade single-stage triggers, I was very impressed. It seems as though it'd be a huge benefit for slow-fire, and probably even timed. But I'd think that Rapid-fire would be harder (than a short, crisp single-stage).

So is it in fact a give and take? Or do some folks find the 2-stage preferable for even rapid-fire?

The owner of this gun admitted to not liking it for timed and rapid. But I think his gain in slow-fire offset his losses in the other two.

Curious what (if any) the norm is.

Thanks for your feedback.

[jackh]

I believe it is fiction that two stage beats single stage. Theres more to it.



Quality beats all.

Adjustable positions comes next. The fact that it is single or two stage is least important.

[2650 Plus]

The length, weight ,pull of two stage triggers have never made any difference in my score and I have been doing this since 1956. As Jack said the quality of and consistancy of the final break is the critical factor. One of the top gunsmiths and a national champion in three gun bullseye showed me a slow motion film once that illustrated a slight hesitation occurring when the first stage completed and would install a single stage if the shooter insisted but even he did not believe the hesitation had much to do with the shot on the target. Even with a two stage trigger you can learn to release the trigger just enough to reset the sear during the sustained fire strings and have the same effect of a single stage on you shooting technique. Welcome to the sport, Good Shooting Bill Horton

[solomon grundy]

Even with a two stage trigger you can learn to release the trigger just enough to reset the sear during the sustained fire strings and have the same effect of a single stage on you shooting technique.

That's right. You're not fully releasing the trigger, you're allowing it to reset and will be engaged in the second stage when executing the trigger pull, so you're not actually using a two-stage for timed and rapid.

Personally I don't tend to like two stage triggers for pistols, though I do for rifles. Most of my pistols have roll triggers, though one has a single stage - actually it's a stock Trailside, so it's an N-stage ;)

[Ed Hall]

Even with a two stage trigger you can learn to release the trigger just enough to reset the sear during the sustained fire strings and have the same effect of a single stage on you shooting technique.

That's right. You're not fully releasing the trigger, you're allowing it to reset and will be engaged in the second stage when executing the trigger pull, so you're not actually using a two-stage for timed and rapid.

Odd... I have never seen a gun that would reset the sear without releasing** through the first stage. Could someone provide (a) model number(s)?

**I'm using the term "releasing" in the manner I'm familiar with (and the manner in which SG seemed to be using it) - letting off the pressure, instead of the more familiar oxymoron of releasing the trigger by pulling it.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) CompetitionThings

[2650Plus]

Ed try your 1911. Mine resets every time. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Mike Taylor]

Ed,
The Matchguns MG2 will reset upon releasing the second stage. No need to release all the way past the first stage (in sustained fire).
Mike T.

[Ed Hall]

Hi Bill,

My 1911s don't have two stage triggers. Who did yours?

Thanks Mike T. I'd be interested in the mechanics. I'll have to look into it.

Just to add a bit of info:

Although I have addressed the very concern of a detectable "bump" with my 208s, I have never actually noticed the second stage while firing sustained fire. I did, however, find myself staging the trigger when I cranked up the first stage weight and removed the second stage. My current configuration has most of the weight on the first, a noticable amount on the second and a bit of a roll to the second stage.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

[2650 Plus]

Ed , my guns have always been the product of Travis Strahan excepting my very first set which were made by George Elliason, George trained Travis very early in his career and Travis went on from there to be a top gunsmith at the USAMU for many years, After his retirement from the army Travis continued to develope his gun smithing skills and became the consumate professional in the field.I consider him to be the very best in the world in accurizing the 1911 and am confident that many top shooters agree with my evaluation. Back to the orriginal issue. Could we be having a misunderstanding ? The only 1911 45s that I know of with a single action trigger were made by Jim Clark Senior before his death. To me a single action trigger has no movement until it releases the hammer to fire the pistol. and you only have to release the pressure on the trigger for it to reset the disconecter and be ready to fire the next shot. Are we talking about the same thing? Good Shooting Bill Horton

[tenex]

Odd... I have never seen a gun that would reset the sear without releasing** through the first stage. Could someone provide (a) model number(s)?

**I'm using the term "releasing" in the manner I'm familiar with (and the manner in which SG seemed to be using it) - letting off the pressure, instead of the more familiar oxymoron of releasing the trigger by pulling it.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) CompetitionThings

Hi Ed,
My Pardini has an artificial second stage (implemented via an adjustable ball plunger) and operates as you described. You could however take a crisp single stage trigger and add some take-up and a spring and add an artificial 1st stage instead. I don't know of any one who does this, but it could work. You'd loose the deep sear engagement of a traditional 2 stage trigger, but you wouldn't have to reset much past the second stage.

I look at the 2 stage trigger as primarily a safety feature, giving me a super crisp trigger without a dangerously short sear engagement. I've seen a few 2 stage triggers with virtually no 1st stage, and they make me a little nervous (actually, my air pistol works this way).

Steve.

[Fred Mannis]

Back to the orriginal issue. Could we be having a misunderstanding ? The only 1911 45s that I know of with a single action trigger were made by Jim Clark Senior before his death. To me a single action trigger has no movement until it releases the hammer to fire the pistol. and you only have to release the pressure on the trigger for it to reset the disconecter and be ready to fire the next shot. Are we talking about the same thing? Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill, I think there is a misunderstanding. Here is a description of a two stage trigger (courtesy of David Levene) Imagine you are pushing a heavy ball up a hill, that's the first stage. Near the top of the hill is a low wall that you have to push the ball over, that's the second stage. In a two stage trigger the weight of the ball and the slope of the hill and the length of the path to the wall can be adjusted. Similarly, the height and position of the wall can be adjusted.
The 1911 has a single stage trigger - there is typically some small movement (slack) requiring no force, then increasing force with no (or minimal) movement releases the hammer.

[Ed Hall]

Hi Bill,

You are right, we need to communicate with the same definitions in place.

Here is the description I'm working with:

Take-up - the amount of free play at the very beginning of trigger travel. This is normally where the disconnector is allowed to reset. Most trigger systems have a very minimal weight for this portion of the travel.

First stage - an area where the operator increases pressure to set the arm up for firing. In a single stage system, when the final weight is reached, the arm fires. Most 1911s are designed this way.

Second stage - an additional, and noticeable, point where increased weight is needed to complete firing.

Break - the point at which the mechanism causes discharge.

Over-travel - the point in mechanical triggers between the break and the stop.

Stop - the point at which all trigger rearward movement is arrested.

The two stage system allows you to "stage" the trigger such that you can have the feeling of less effort needed to complete firing and an increased awareness of the break point, while allowing for more than minimal engagement of the bearing surfaces. This allows you to pull through the first stage and set yourself up at the second stage, knowing that a certain increase will complete the shot. Typically, a shooter can set up three-quarters of the final weight on the first stage, with the additional one-quarter of the weight on the second. While firing, they would pull through the first stage and "bump" the second. At this point they could stop and make final adjustments or pull through, depending on the individual's process.

Note: In the days of the revolver for Bullseye competition here is the U.S. it was common to place a pencil eraser inside the trigger guard behind the trigger such that for the long double action pull, the trigger could be brought back against the eraser. from that point additional pressure would complete firing as the eraser was compressed. This illustrates the workings of a two-stage system.

As Steve (tenex) wrote, you could simply increase the travel and weight on the take-up portion of a single stage system to simulate a two stage trigger (I wonder if this is what the MG2 has), but in reality it would be a single stage trigger with a heavy and long take-up.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
US Air Force Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) Competition Things

[solomon grundy]

The pistol that I was thinking of in my original post was an IZH 35M that I'd used for a few months several years ago. Once I'd bought my own, I configured this as a single stage w/ minimal take-up.

Reading Ed's post causes me to wonder whether the set-up I remember was actually two stage, or just a single stage w/ a lot of take-up.

[2650 Plus]

Ed , I believe there is an over symplification in your assigning the specific definations to first stage and slack. You should be aware that on the 1911 ,the middle leaf of the sear spring can be adjusted to increase the first stage [slack] resistance to pressure very much as you describe the adjustment on the european target pistols. It seems that you have found a difference without any appreciable difference. In any case the discription and definations you proveded may be meaningful to a mechanical engeneer but how do they help one shoot a ten? Remember the admonition with the that goes with KISS. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[Ed Hall]

Hi Bill,

If we were to use your idea of considering the take-up portion as a first stage, wouldn't that mean my 208s has three stages? Yes, I agree that could be done, but as someone else mentioned, at least in my 208s, both first and second stages move the sear in reference to the hammer, while the take-up portion allows the disconnector to reconnect after cycling. This is also what happens in the take-up portion of the 1911. The disconnector paddle is allowed to move back between the trigger stirrup and the sear feet. This is also why I wonder about the MG2. They may be defining the take-up portion as a first stage in the manner you suggest. But, again, I assert that that definition carried to other arms would make them three stage systems. For the simplicity (KISS) of the matter, wouldn't it be best to use the same definitions throughout? Most of the 1911s are considered to have a single stage trigger, while a two-stage mechanical** trigger already commonly means having two stages in addition to the take-up.

Now a question for the owners of electronic pistols:

**Do those with two stages have a slack portion, or do they operate as Bill suggests with no slack? Where does the disconnection come into the cycling? I realize there may be no need of disconnection for single shot AP and FP, but aren't there some autoloaders with electronic triggers? Is disconnection done electronically or mechanically?

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) CompetitionThings

[Richard H]

I think the problem is there are true 2-stage triggers (very few today) and pseudo 2 stage triggers (most of the pistols today). The true 2 stage triggers are like you described the sear moves in both phases, the pseudo 2 stage triggers rely on springs and such to give you a pseudo 1st stage and the sear moves and releases in the second stage.

[Steve Swartz]

Ed:

I think you know all of the following already- and your (implied) point is well taken (to those who think about it).

Autoloaders with electronic triggers (using the pardini RF pistol as an example) have an "electromechanical fire control system." The "electric" part involves the trigger, which opens/closes a circuit. Trigger feel is wide open- generally controlled by adjustable springs- to give you whatever feel you want, from 0 creep breaking glass single stage, all the way out to mushy long pull rolling two stage feel (e.g. a typical morini 82e vs a 162e with 90%-10% weight distribution).

So in terms of trigger feel, "sears" as such and associated movement/slack/creep etc. are irrelevant.

The "mechanical" part involves the charging and firing of a solenoid, which engages/disengages a "sear-like" mechanism releasing the cocked firing pin (hammers and sears are both generally irrelevant; depending on specific design of course. A "Glock like" system with a cocked spring and "pseudo sear" holding it back is one design; a solenoid energized firing pin is another but that design really sucks the juice).

So the "disconnector" function doesn't exist either necessarily; the analogous function would be the recharging of the solenoid in between shots.

Not sure how the older electromechanical triggers worked.

Steve Swartz

(one would think our discipline would have some kind of "authoritative source" for definitions like this? Oh well we frequently argue about "magazines" vs. "clips" so it's no surprise we have no agreed upon definition of single vs two stage triggers . . . )

[Ed Hall]

Thanks Steve,

I haven't had a Glock apart in a lot of years, but I'm pretty sure there's a disconnect function, so holding the trigger back through the shot still allows for the striker to be reset. It might be built into the trigger bar functioning like the Beretta. If so, there still has to be some way to allow for reset and that will need a tolerance (take-up) so it is reliable.

As to Solenoid fired arms, I can see how the solenoid could be pulsed and the electronics control when it can be pulsed again for the next shot. I see you're not a fan of direct solenoid powered firing pins.(smile)

I can also see that electronic triggers can allow for the entire range of "feel" in their setups. Perhaps they are a "redefining" impetus for the equipment...

I think I'll let this thread slip into the archives for now. I have a bit of training ahead of me so I can win the Sectional coming up in a couple weeks.(smile)

Take Care,
Ed Hall
U.S. Air Force Competitive Shooting Teams
Bullseye (and International) CompetitionThings