Note the two emails from Bob Mitchell below. If USA Shooting makes the changes he suggest , we'll probably continue to shoot PTO's instead of NRA approved matches.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Mitchell
To: Joel S. Sexton, M.D.
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Increase in registration fee schedule for PTO's
Joel,
You’re welcome to forward my e-mail. The changes are not a done deal as we have to work with the database design company. Earlier they indicated our request was a problem but skilled computer folks should be able to handle this requirement.
Bob
Robert K. Mitchell
ED-CEO
USA Shooting
719-866-4899
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel S. Sexton, M.D. [mailto:joel.sexton@newberrypathology.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:30 AM
To: Bob Mitchell
Subject: Re: Increase in registration fee schedule for PTO's
Thanks for your quick response, Bob.
What you suggest in this email ( $2.00 for each additional event at a match )would sit much better with our shooters.
We like the electronic submission of scores and registration fees.
May I forward your email to others who are concerned or would it be better if I wait until USA Shooting makes an announcement. The sooner a modification is published the better as far as calming the storm.
Joel
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Mitchell
To: Joel S. Sexton, M.D. ; John Bickar ; John Bickar ; John Bickar
Cc: Lindsay Brooke
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Increase in registration fee schedule for PTO's
Joel,
We are working the issue.
The changes are related to the new database and on-line system. USAS fees will likely be $6 for the first match and $2 for any additional event entries at a single competition.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Bob
Robert K. Mitchell
ED-CEO
USA Shooting
719-866-4899
-----Original Message-----
From: Joel S. Sexton, M.D. [mailto:joel.sexton@newberrypathology.com]
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 3:20 PM
To: John Bickar; John Bickar; John Bickar; Bob Mitchell
Subject: Increase in registration fee schedule for PTO's
Bob, the new registrtion fee schedule
for PTO's that USA shooting put into effect last month ( letter received March 1,2007 ) is creating a lot of concern.
The new fees schedule is $ 6.00 per shooter PER MATCH.
Therefore if you shot three matches ( free, standard and air ) you would pay $18.00 which would go to USA Shooting plus a match fee to cover targets and awards, etc.
To promote shooting we have charged $10.00 for the first match and $5.00 for each additional match. We have sent $6.00 of the first $10.00 to USA Shooting and used the remaing $4.00 to cover targets and awards.
We would need to go up to at least $10.00 per event or more to have the same money for awards and targets.
I worry about how this will effect families where one or two children and one or two parents shoot three matches. We have given juniors and adults Newberry club members a break by charging them $7.00 for the first match and $3.00 for each additional match. Therefore that family shooting three matches each would go from $52.00 to $120.00.
A college team ( which we also gave the same fee schedule ) with 12 shooters would go from $156.00 to $360.00
We have already had individuals complain and encourage us to run NRA matches which have a single fee of $4.50 for each person for any number of matches or to simply send in one of their scores to USA Shooting for classification purposes.
It is rare for the shooters who participate in our local matches to go on to the U.S. International Championship conducted by USA Shooting except for an occasional junior. However , they do help support USA Shooting and NRA by participating in local matches where juniors and a few young adults get motivated enough to go to the nationals level. They also talk up the sport and some donate money.
This sudden increase has created a lot of negative opinions about USA Shooting and will probably result in decreased participation nation wide. At our last match this month only three of the shooters paid the required registration fee to send ONE of their scores to USA shooting. There were 22 shooters who shot three matches each.
We are very concerned about the effect this increase in fees will have on our VERY SMALL GRASSROOTS in pistol where many will shoot all five events .
These are the people who may teach the young juniors in the progressive position air pistol programs and encourage young shooters to accomplish what they were unable to accomplish ( make a U.S. Team, Go to the Olympics, etc.) .
We feel a different way of defraining the cost of running matches should be considered. If an increase in fee schedule is still needed then consider one that has a sliding scale
( i.e.$6.00 for first match, $4.00 for second and $2.00 or $3.00 for any additionals events fired the same day).
This would not look like it was designed to penalize pistol shooters who shoot multiple matches.
The NRA approved matches and the PTO's are run the same way by probably the same match director's. It may now be time to consider letting NRA receive all the scores and do the classification with some partial funding from USA Shooting or the other way around.
Maybe the PTO's and approved NRA matches could simply be "international matches" authorized by both organizations. The USA Shooting regionals and the NRA Sectionals would stay under each organizational the other matches would some how be shared.
Many service retailer ( gas stations and short order food chains , some short order food chains ) are sharing space, utilities and employees to cut down on over head.
Maybe NRA and USA Shooting should do the same.
Joel Sexton
Joel Sexton
Citadel Pistol Coach
Increase in registration fee schedule for PTO's
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
It should also be noted that one of the reasons that CMP has taken over sanctioning of the 3-P Air rifle Events (even the JO's) is that USA Shooting was (and still is as far as I know) expectiing that under an event sanctioned by USA Shooting all of the shooters must be USA Shooting members.
This was a large problem in our International JO's where we had only had a fraction of the scores reported to USA Shooting. When you have a club that has kids shoot in only 1 or 2 USAS events per year, the membership fee probably doubles the average match entry fee.
This was a large problem in our International JO's where we had only had a fraction of the scores reported to USA Shooting. When you have a club that has kids shoot in only 1 or 2 USAS events per year, the membership fee probably doubles the average match entry fee.
A copy of this has been sent to Bob Mitchell.
The elimination of league sanctioning in favor of the per event fee has resulted in the elimination of the only USAS sanctioned air pistol in Western Washington, and probably the whole state. The change would have made the $25 event nearly $100. This has always been a fertile event for recruitment of new USAS members, but it is also a family event for many of our members. $400 for a family to shoot for few weeks may not mean anything to the big shots in Colorado, but it ain't peanuts out here. We will shoot without sanctioning and I'm betting that just as many will participate. It won't hurt our club, but USAS will certainly loose membership and exposure in their quest for more money.
The upcoming free pistol match will not be sanctioned either. USAS threw out all of the sanctioning requests that were in process when they tried to go to their on-line system. The inept execution of that effort, with its attendant delays means that we do not have sanctioning for any of the free pistol events on the club calendar. The online system does not fit well with club operations. The single administrator concept may be cool for small organizations that don't host many events, but it aint gonna work in an environment of thousands doing everything from archery to trap, Multiple administrators might make the sanctioning and score reporting work to the point of making further USAS sanctioning possible. It won't fix fee reporting. Some clubs don't have credit cards, and aren't likely to get them just to appease USA Shooting. Of course we can still send a check, along with the penalty fee. Now I admit, I have a personal problem with paying an organization a fee to take my money. The banks may get away with it on occasion, but one has little choice about using banks. On the other hand, I can exist quite nicely without USA Shooting. After all, I seem to be a nobody to the organization. My '05 free pistol scores are wrong, my' 06 air pistol scores are wrong, they seem to have lost the fact that I'm an official...
I have considered NRA sanctioning. We ran NRA matches long before USAS came along.
Larry
The elimination of league sanctioning in favor of the per event fee has resulted in the elimination of the only USAS sanctioned air pistol in Western Washington, and probably the whole state. The change would have made the $25 event nearly $100. This has always been a fertile event for recruitment of new USAS members, but it is also a family event for many of our members. $400 for a family to shoot for few weeks may not mean anything to the big shots in Colorado, but it ain't peanuts out here. We will shoot without sanctioning and I'm betting that just as many will participate. It won't hurt our club, but USAS will certainly loose membership and exposure in their quest for more money.
The upcoming free pistol match will not be sanctioned either. USAS threw out all of the sanctioning requests that were in process when they tried to go to their on-line system. The inept execution of that effort, with its attendant delays means that we do not have sanctioning for any of the free pistol events on the club calendar. The online system does not fit well with club operations. The single administrator concept may be cool for small organizations that don't host many events, but it aint gonna work in an environment of thousands doing everything from archery to trap, Multiple administrators might make the sanctioning and score reporting work to the point of making further USAS sanctioning possible. It won't fix fee reporting. Some clubs don't have credit cards, and aren't likely to get them just to appease USA Shooting. Of course we can still send a check, along with the penalty fee. Now I admit, I have a personal problem with paying an organization a fee to take my money. The banks may get away with it on occasion, but one has little choice about using banks. On the other hand, I can exist quite nicely without USA Shooting. After all, I seem to be a nobody to the organization. My '05 free pistol scores are wrong, my' 06 air pistol scores are wrong, they seem to have lost the fact that I'm an official...
I have considered NRA sanctioning. We ran NRA matches long before USAS came along.
Larry