We're having an argument in my little handgun club. I run a weekly "casual" bullseye match. It's .22 pistol only, but we allow almost any sights; iron, scope or dot. We correct scratch scores to handicapped ones. Typically I have about 30 shooters in our little bowling league. These guys run the gamit from half of the shots score to master shooters. I'm an expert that bumps a master score every lunar eclipse or so. But with a level handicapped playing field, everyone has a good time. So you hardcore iron sight olympic pistol competitors stop reading right here.
For those of you that kept reading, during a RF stage, I had a shooter with a dot scope suffer a dead battery during her 5 shot string. She stopped shooting and declared an alibi. I was absent that particular night, the range master present did not allow the alibi and the shooter was charged with 4 misses. His thinking was avoidable shooter error, like failing to load a magazine. Had I been there, I would have allowed it as a hardware malfunction, she could have changed the battery and shot an alibi string.
Now of course I've got a bit of a debate going on in my club as to what the "rule" should be. I've already said we're a casual club. I could just make an edict and add it to our R&Rs. But we do try to follow the spirit if not the exact letter of bullseye shooting rules, so is there a NRA bullseye rule for this? If not, what say you all?
Cheers
John
Red Dot Dead Battery: Alibi or Not?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
-
mikeschroeder
- Posts: 488
- Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:56 am
- Location: Kansas
Hi
Check the rules here:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
They at least USED to be on this sight.
Mike
Check the rules here:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
They at least USED to be on this sight.
Mike
red dot failure
Under rule 9.5 / Disabled pistol ,section a, the pistol is considered disabled if it cannot be safely aimed or fired. I believe that since the red dot failed the gun could not be safely aimed and should be considered disabled thereby making an alibi string necessary. Jim
Red dot battery allibi
I run an "informal" bullseye league every winter (10 weeks) with handncap at 80% of the difference between 300 and your score ((average of most pervious two weeks)). I would and have allowed an allibi for a dead battery as equipment failure. This is strictly a .22 RF match. Anyone who is too picky and won't allow the allibi is driving away participants. We whould be doing everything we can to encourage participants, not discourage them. The future of our sport is getting and keeping younger shooters into the match's. Look around, how many of your shooters are under age 40.
Red dot battery allibi
I run an "informal" bullseye league every winter (10 weeks) with handncap at 80% of the difference between 300 and your score ((average of most pervious two weeks)). I would and have allowed an allibi for a dead battery as equipment failure. This is strictly a .22 RF match. Anyone who is too picky and won't allow the allibi is driving away participants. We whould be doing everything we can to encourage participants, not discourage them. The future of our sport is getting and keeping younger shooters into the match's. Look around, how many of your shooters are under age 40.
-
CR10XGuest
Ok. Here's a thought. (Although I'm going to get into trouble again talking about Bullseye on this heer high faluting, international shootin', don't need no stinkin' dot sights, anomoticalin' grippin', NPA findin', electronical triggerin', website bashin' list).
How about actually getting an NRA Approved match going? Just navigate the website, not easy but its there, and get an application for an Approved Match.
Then you get a handy, dandy set of rules everybody can follow (are are supposed to read) and the shooters can really get classified. They don't even have to be NRA members for an approved match, unless they want a classification card.
There are several types of matches / distances and formats you can choose from, you will be able to use standardized type targets, etc.
The only down side is that the match organizer has to do some paperwork to send the scores and some money to the NRA. OK, I'll admit that $4.50 per shooter might actually break somebody's budget and keep them. But somebody's already having to collect scores and run the thing anyway. Just keep a record of the raw scores for the reporting sheet.
But you will be able to answer the question because you will have a set of rules to go by.
(The answer is yes, that is an allowable alibi assuming the shooter did not try to correct the problem and followed the procedure.)
Cecil
How about actually getting an NRA Approved match going? Just navigate the website, not easy but its there, and get an application for an Approved Match.
Then you get a handy, dandy set of rules everybody can follow (are are supposed to read) and the shooters can really get classified. They don't even have to be NRA members for an approved match, unless they want a classification card.
There are several types of matches / distances and formats you can choose from, you will be able to use standardized type targets, etc.
The only down side is that the match organizer has to do some paperwork to send the scores and some money to the NRA. OK, I'll admit that $4.50 per shooter might actually break somebody's budget and keep them. But somebody's already having to collect scores and run the thing anyway. Just keep a record of the raw scores for the reporting sheet.
But you will be able to answer the question because you will have a set of rules to go by.
(The answer is yes, that is an allowable alibi assuming the shooter did not try to correct the problem and followed the procedure.)
Cecil
We all agree...
A battery failure should be an alibi. That's what I'm hearing from you guys and the direction I'm going to go. I was just hoping for a little NRA legislation I could quote to support my position.
I read the rules on bulleyepistol.com too. I wasn't satisfied with rule 9.5 as pertains to a dead battery. I can safely aim and fire a pistol without the red dot. What I can't do is hold the black without the dot.
If you don't turn your dot on, that's shooter error and not an alibi. But if your battery goes dead, then a functional part of your gun stopped working and it needs to be replaced. IMHO.
I wonder what happens in a hi-falutin olympic air pistol match when the fancy electronic trigger battery I have on my Morini goes dead. To my mind that's no different than the air cylinder dropping below the threshold pressure to get a shot off. All you do is change cylinders. Not quite so easy to change Morini batteries, but the principle is the same.
Our handicap system is basically the same. It's a factor times the difference of 300 and your score. The factor is calculated based on your previous 3 weeks of shooting from the NRA drop table. But for the average shooter it is around 80%.
Thanks for the input
John
I read the rules on bulleyepistol.com too. I wasn't satisfied with rule 9.5 as pertains to a dead battery. I can safely aim and fire a pistol without the red dot. What I can't do is hold the black without the dot.
If you don't turn your dot on, that's shooter error and not an alibi. But if your battery goes dead, then a functional part of your gun stopped working and it needs to be replaced. IMHO.
I wonder what happens in a hi-falutin olympic air pistol match when the fancy electronic trigger battery I have on my Morini goes dead. To my mind that's no different than the air cylinder dropping below the threshold pressure to get a shot off. All you do is change cylinders. Not quite so easy to change Morini batteries, but the principle is the same.
Our handicap system is basically the same. It's a factor times the difference of 300 and your score. The factor is calculated based on your previous 3 weeks of shooting from the NRA drop table. But for the average shooter it is around 80%.
Thanks for the input
John
8.8.1 Should a pistol break down or cease to function, the shooter is allowed to repair the pistol.
8.8.2 The maximum extra shooting time allowed to repair or replace a pistol is 15 min. and must be completed in the same relay.
8.8.2.3 Extra time and additional sighting shots must only be granted if the interuption is not due to a fault of the shooter.
I'd say a dead battery would most likely get you extra time where as an empty cylinder wouldn't unless there was a problem. Had a gentleman go through almost 3 full cylinders on his LP10, obviously there was a problem that was not his own fault.
As AP is a single shot event and for males is 105 minutes long there's usually more than ample time to fix or replace your pistol with your back-up (you do have a back don't you).
8.8.2 The maximum extra shooting time allowed to repair or replace a pistol is 15 min. and must be completed in the same relay.
8.8.2.3 Extra time and additional sighting shots must only be granted if the interuption is not due to a fault of the shooter.
I'd say a dead battery would most likely get you extra time where as an empty cylinder wouldn't unless there was a problem. Had a gentleman go through almost 3 full cylinders on his LP10, obviously there was a problem that was not his own fault.
As AP is a single shot event and for males is 105 minutes long there's usually more than ample time to fix or replace your pistol with your back-up (you do have a back don't you).
-
CR10XGuest
Club and League Shooting
I have encountered my club/league shooters who are all to eager to chime in when they do not know the rules. Last Tuesday, one of my league shooters put up two targets at the same time. He realized his error and took another target from the bench for his next course of fire. His scorer wanted to disqualify that last target!
RE: NRA Approved
One additional consideration; the Supervisor of an NRA Approved match can not participate (other officials may). A show stopper for a small, grass-roots effort with unpredictable turnout. I'd like to sponsor 50ft. Free Pistol this coming winter season at my club's indoor range, but can't get around that one.
-- Rob W.
-- Rob W.
CR10XGuest wrote:Ok. Here's a thought.
How about actually getting an NRA Approved match going? Just navigate the website, not easy but its there, and get an application for an Approved Match.
<snipped>
The only down side is that the match organizer has to do some paperwork to send the scores and some money to the NRA. OK, I'll admit that $4.50 per shooter might actually break somebody's budget and keep them ...
Cecil
-
CR10XGuest
Well, the Match Supervisor is to be the person to see the rules are properly applied and the final decision on challenged targets. They may be...etc. They may be the Match Director.
Anyway, the point is that for approved matches you can get by with only one person not shooting and that is the person that will help interpret and enforce the rules and have final decisions on the challenges. Therefore the match sponsor can select the person calling the match as the Match Supervisor (assuming they are capable of the job).
Since the recent discussion have also indicated that the NRA expects there to be a person actually in charge of the line, even with electronic callers, for safety reasons; there should always be at least one person not shooting the match.
What's the problem?
Anyway, the point is that for approved matches you can get by with only one person not shooting and that is the person that will help interpret and enforce the rules and have final decisions on the challenges. Therefore the match sponsor can select the person calling the match as the Match Supervisor (assuming they are capable of the job).
Since the recent discussion have also indicated that the NRA expects there to be a person actually in charge of the line, even with electronic callers, for safety reasons; there should always be at least one person not shooting the match.
What's the problem?
All good points, but it would be nice if one official PER RELAY could not shoot the match under the current rules. If so, then it would require only two insiders to run an Approved match, and both could participate. I realize that this may seem a trivial difference, but the club I belong to has virtually NO members that are competitive handgun shooters in any discipline, and I'm sure we are not alone in that regard. Given that I would not be able to participate if I did host a match, there is no incentive to do so. What time and resources I can spare for the hobby are better spent as a participant somewhere else.
In my opinion, the lowest "grassroots" level sanction should cater to the one-man-show that is operating a new program on spec; there are enough barriers to entry in our sport without fabricating them for ourselves.
-- Rob W.
In my opinion, the lowest "grassroots" level sanction should cater to the one-man-show that is operating a new program on spec; there are enough barriers to entry in our sport without fabricating them for ourselves.
-- Rob W.
CR10XGuest wrote:
Since the recent discussion have also indicated that the NRA expects there to be a person actually in charge of the line, even with electronic callers, for safety reasons; there should always be at least one person not shooting the match.
What's the problem?
-
CR10XGuest
Ahh... now we come to the crux of the problem.
If you want to compete, then YOU need to find someone and give them an incentive and the instruction necessary to be the Match Supervisor. If YOU want to promote shooting overall, then you have to make a decision to find a way to get started. Nothing personal here, but are you sure your time is better spend as a participant somewhere else or trying to get matches started and running?
Think about it this way. Without putting on a match, you probably have exactly ZERO chance on someone coming out, shooting your match, getting interested and eventually giving you a hand.
Sorry, but that's how it works. I got to shoot about 6 or 7 total bullseye matches last year, the rest I had to run. And that was just getting someone to be the supervisor. I still did all the other match operations, including looking for that (^*(&^ dollar in the entry fees to make sure the books balanced and sending out all the results, and sending the state association and the NRA their cut, schedule, mailouts, announcements, etc. But I did get to shoot some matches, including Perry, and a lot of other people got to shoot as well. Bullseye would probably be gone or nothing without the help of a few people at our club.
But with years of trying, this Saturday we had to turn away about 5 people for lack of space AND the entire line is already reserved for next months match. You don't know how bad I felt having to turn people away that had driven a couple of hours to get to the match.
Anyway, just a personal observation for you. If someone doesn't change their focus, it is apparent there will be exactly the same number of matches you have now.
Cecil "Talking about Bullsye on the List Again" Rhodes
Seems to me the problem is one of commitment to finding a way for you to compete or finding a way to put on a match. With enough people with that attitude (which there seems to be in a lot of the shooting sports), we will continue to have problems finding a match.Given that I would not be able to participate if I did host a match, there is no incentive to do so. What time and resources I can spare for the hobby are better spent as a participant somewhere else.
If you want to compete, then YOU need to find someone and give them an incentive and the instruction necessary to be the Match Supervisor. If YOU want to promote shooting overall, then you have to make a decision to find a way to get started. Nothing personal here, but are you sure your time is better spend as a participant somewhere else or trying to get matches started and running?
Think about it this way. Without putting on a match, you probably have exactly ZERO chance on someone coming out, shooting your match, getting interested and eventually giving you a hand.
Sorry, but that's how it works. I got to shoot about 6 or 7 total bullseye matches last year, the rest I had to run. And that was just getting someone to be the supervisor. I still did all the other match operations, including looking for that (^*(&^ dollar in the entry fees to make sure the books balanced and sending out all the results, and sending the state association and the NRA their cut, schedule, mailouts, announcements, etc. But I did get to shoot some matches, including Perry, and a lot of other people got to shoot as well. Bullseye would probably be gone or nothing without the help of a few people at our club.
But with years of trying, this Saturday we had to turn away about 5 people for lack of space AND the entire line is already reserved for next months match. You don't know how bad I felt having to turn people away that had driven a couple of hours to get to the match.
Anyway, just a personal observation for you. If someone doesn't change their focus, it is apparent there will be exactly the same number of matches you have now.
Cecil "Talking about Bullsye on the List Again" Rhodes