coach's experience in getting a shooter to the next level

[Olympic hopeful]

For a shooter who is currently middle of the ranks internationally, do you think it is important for that shooter's coach to have prior experience getting shooters to an internationally competitive level? Do you think it is important for that coach to have personal experience competing at a high level as an athlete?

[David Levene]

For a shooter who is currently middle of the ranks internationally, do you think it is important for that shooter's coach to have prior experience getting shooters to an internationally competitive level?

No, coaches are not born having helped shooters get to international level. They have to have a "first".

Do you think it is important for that coach to have personal experience competing at a high level as an athlete?

No, absolutely not.

All that having competed at high level does for a coach is to give them experience that may hopefully give assistance to their shooters. From the technical point of view, whether physical or mental, competitive experience only teaches the shooter how they do it themselves. It doesn't mean that they can necessarilly coach another shooter to find the best technique for them.

[RobStubbs]

I have to say I agree with David 100%. You can have a good shooter who's a poor coach and vice versa.

The only thing I would add is that if you are that shooter you should have a detailed chat with your coach. Ensure you are both moving in the same direction and have appropriately sets goals and plans to acheive those goals. The shooter / coach relationship needs to be 100% honest and open for you to both get the most out of it. If you question whether your coach is the right person for the job then talk to him / her about your concerns.

Rob.

[Steve Swartz]

There are four domains of coaching vs. shooting skill:

1) Lousy shooter, Lousy coach
2) Great shooter, Lousy coach
3) Lousy shooter, Great coach
4) Great shooter, Great coach

It has been my personal (and admittedly limited) that condition 4 is very, very rare.

Condition 1 seems to be the most common; perhaps for obvious reasons. This is, of course, out of the broad shooting community. Condition 2 seems to be very common as well. Out of the truly great and near great shooters, it would appear not many of them are great coaches. Condition 3 seems to be also common: when you consider coaches who seem to be very effective in producing great shooters, how many of them were truly great shooters themselves?

These observations- if indeed they are correct, and I'm not just seeing something that isn't there- would suggest that perhaps the skillsets for "Shooting" and "Coaching" are not only independent of one another but are indeed somewhat mutually exclusive.

But they certainly aren't direclty correlated in a positive way.

The second point is indeed relevant: you should seek a coach responsible for producing great shooters, not a coach who was him or her self a great shooter. This of course would eliminate any great coach who does not yet have an established track record.

Just my humble thoughts.

Steve Swartz

[RobStubbs]

The second point is indeed relevant: you should seek a coach responsible for producing great shooters, not a coach who was him or her self a great shooter. This of course would eliminate any great coach who does not yet have an established track record.

Just my humble thoughts.

Steve Swartz

Oh to be in such a position. I would imagine almost no-one is in such a position so to be able pick one is going to be a pipe dream for 99.9% of us. Don't also forget you need to get on with your coach very well. I would suggest that is probably more important than a coaches track record (within reason). No good having a great coach if he rubs you up the wrong way every time you train.

Rob.

[David Levene]

Might the athlete not take the coach as seriously if the coach hasn't been there?

Then that isn't a problem with the coach, it's a problem with the athlete's relationship with the coach.

The reverse could also happen if the coach had previously been a World Champion, "He wants me to shoot exactly the way he used to".

It doesn't matter what shooting level the coach has achieved, if there is not mutual respect between the coach and the shooter then it won't work. Coaching is not just about teaching the mechanics of shooting, it's about getting the best out of the shooter.

If the athletes follows the coach's directions implicitly without question, then this isn't an issue.

It's actually a much bigger issue. The coach/shooter relationship should be much more than lecturer/student. The good coach will ALLWAYS accept feedback from the shooter.

But if the athlete is analytical, and I believe you have to be, in order to achieve at a high level, then the athlete might go, "hey, I think this way will work best, but my coach says otherwise, but he/she hasn't been there, so how does he/she know that it will work better than what I think?"

"Having been there" does not make a coach an expert in what works. It just makes them (possibly) an expert in what worked for them. Even if they have been to the very top of the sport, if they don't understand this simple fact then IMHO they are a lousy coach.

The shooter also needs to understand that it isn't the fact that the coach may have been a World Champion that matters, it is what they have done to learn about shooting (not necessarily on formal courses) since they retired that is more important.

The most important thing in the coach/shooter relationship is the mutual respect. If the shooter doesn't respect the coach just because he/she hasn't been at the top then it is shooter who has the problem, not the coach.

My own coach, sadly long deceased, was never more than a club level shooter. He was however an expert in getting the best out of people by working with them, not by instructing them. I cannot remember him ever telling any (International level) shooter to change anything. Discussion and suggestion were a much more effective tool.

[Steve Swartz]

David:

Your post is a "Keeper." This conversation is actually (however short) a very "high impact" thread potentially for us all; not just "newbies."

Steve

[seemehaha]

Coaching is not just about teaching the mechanics of shooting, it's about getting the best out of the shooter.

i think this is one of the biggest points that people miss in all sports. that's the little something special that most people who try to coach don't have, and it's more than just getting the best scores too. it's getting the athlete to preform consistantly and help the athlete feel good about how they do, opposed to only feeling good about the final results. and on those bad days, it's being able to help the athlete past the emotions to analyze what honestly happened and then create strategies to get past that next hurdle.

[Elmas]

A shooter can only see himself and his performance 'subjectively' ... We have a sort of 'blind spot' that makes most of us unable to objectively judge our performance.

A Coach is an impartial outside observer who can see one more accurately . He helps by pointing things out to us that we either are not aware of .. or are subconsiously preferring to ignore.

We can make progress as much as we are able to take his observations seriously .


No matter how good a Coach is .. he can O N L Y take us as far as our abilties and nature can achieve... He shall have succeeded if he helps us get the best out of ourselves.

I also tend to think that some coaches are very good at 'kindling' that desire to excel through interest and encouragement .



A good question would be : Is a coach necessary for everyone ...? or are there some amongst us who would only be 'hampered' by outside coaching ??

[David Levene]

A good question would be : Is a coach necessary for everyone ...? or are there some amongst us who would only be 'hampered' by outside coaching ??

That is indeed a very good question.

IMHO it is perfectly possible for a shooter to self-coach, but I do feel that they would benefit from at least having a training partner.

Once you reach a certain level then there is probably little more that a coach can do to assist you in achieving/maintaining your "ideal" technique. As has already been discussed however, coaching is about so much more than just the physical.

If you have a training (or lifestyle) partner or a mentor who understands what you are trying to do then, without having the formal training/qualifications or title, they may easily be able to give the necessary "attitude and well-being" support.

The fact that someone else is taking an interest in your shooting is of prime importance.

[RobStubbs]

A shooter can only see himself and his performance 'subjectively' ... We have a sort of 'blind spot' that makes most of us unable to objectively judge our performance.

A Coach is an impartial outside observer who can see one more accurately . He helps by pointing things out to us that we either are not aware of .. or are subconsiously preferring to ignore.
<snip>
A good question would be : Is a coach necessary for everyone ...? or are there some amongst us who would only be 'hampered' by outside coaching ??

I think the role of a coach is to keep shooters on the straight and narrow. Above a certain level most people tend to know what to do they do however forget things, ignore things or just plain don't do them. A coach can help point that out and get the ball moving again.

Re your second point yep a very good point. I would say that a coach is required for 99% of shooters. Most people don't have the self discipline or in some cases the know how to cope with some of the other activities. For example a structured training plan and training sessions. Also all the mental techniques and training. We may know about them but not enough to use them effectively, or we simply don't bother doing them.

The only time a coach won't help is when there is a poor coach / shooter relationship. In those circumstances the issues need sorting out, which could be getting a new coach.

David also mentions having a shooting partner. That helps an awful lot especially if you are on the same level and have similar goals. You do still need to have some degree of coaching to make sure you are on the right track but much less frequently than a lone shooter.

Rob.