Folks,
In reading ATF form 6A, it seems to require that a firearms importer must engrave an imported gun with the name, city, state of the importer.
While this seems pretty clear to me, I've been advised by another shooter who imported a gun that this was NOT required.
Can anyone clarify the issue for us?
Thanks
F. Paul in Denver
Need help - ATF import rule on engraving
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
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F. Paul in Denver
I think that's excellent advice there Pilk. I have no intention of taking anyone's advice at face value. Rather, what I was hoping to accomplish was to try to determine why some importations seem to require it while others do not. More specifically, I was wondering if someone has found an exception to the rule which I could confirm exists and then avail myself of.
I take it that you engrave everything you import???
Thanks again,
F. Paul in Denver
I take it that you engrave everything you import???
Thanks again,
F. Paul in Denver
My understanding is....
I believe that the engraving requirement only applies to "importers" who are registered as such with BATF&E. My reading of Form 6 is that a "regular" FFL holder who occasionally imports items(not for resale in the regular course of business but merely as a facilitator of the transaction)doesn't have to do this. You could always start a 6 month game of phone-tag with the people at BATF&E to find out for sure.
Please, though, remember that I prefaced this by saying "I believe...." and "my understanding is...". It takes a smart man to know how stupid he is.
Tom Amlie
Please, though, remember that I prefaced this by saying "I believe...." and "my understanding is...". It takes a smart man to know how stupid he is.
Tom Amlie
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Guest
I believe you are correct Tom. I've been looking through some the ATF and TTB websites and see that the engraving applies to licensed importers and manufacturers. Same language applies to duty owed on firearms.
I suspect that neither applies to what the ATF refers to as one time or occasional importers. I'm still looking for something that actually spells that out in English.
Thanks for your input - if I end up in the slammer, I'll make sure your name gets on the witness list. :-)
F. Paul
I suspect that neither applies to what the ATF refers to as one time or occasional importers. I'm still looking for something that actually spells that out in English.
Thanks for your input - if I end up in the slammer, I'll make sure your name gets on the witness list. :-)
F. Paul
Having to get the regs out to check another import issue, I decided to re-look into this as well. Under the definations of 27 CFR 47.11 and the requirements under 127 CFR 178.92, I can see no difference between an occasional imporation by private person and the requirements for "all" firearms to be marked and "all" firearms to be paid excise tax on. Which is what I remembered from before.
As soon as you get back your approved Form 6, you are considered a licensed importer for that transaction, with all the regulations being in force.
Is having a gun without a tiny bit of engraving on it and saving the 11% excise tax (at most $200) worth going to jail over? I don't think so. and even this excise tax is Pittman -Robertson money, all going for a good cause....he said as he was just trying to figure out a way to pay less excise tax on imported used guns....
As soon as you get back your approved Form 6, you are considered a licensed importer for that transaction, with all the regulations being in force.
Is having a gun without a tiny bit of engraving on it and saving the 11% excise tax (at most $200) worth going to jail over? I don't think so. and even this excise tax is Pittman -Robertson money, all going for a good cause....he said as he was just trying to figure out a way to pay less excise tax on imported used guns....
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F. Paul in Denver
I agreee - it certainly isnt worth going to jail for. Having put several hundred people there myself, I believe NOTHING is worth going to jail for.
On the other hand, we dont let the IRS intimidate us into paying more income tax than the law requires just to make sure we dont go to jail. We pay what we reasonably believe we owe and not a penny more. If we are unsure, we ask the experts. And then we independently verify the accuracy of the information we get.
That's all I'm trying to establish.
I know for a fact that the importation by a one time or occasional importer does not trigger the same excise tax that an importation does for a fully licensed importer or manufacturer. The exception is justified by the further restriction that once I take possession of the gun, I can never resell it.
Shared knowledge is power.
F. Paul in Denver
On the other hand, we dont let the IRS intimidate us into paying more income tax than the law requires just to make sure we dont go to jail. We pay what we reasonably believe we owe and not a penny more. If we are unsure, we ask the experts. And then we independently verify the accuracy of the information we get.
That's all I'm trying to establish.
I know for a fact that the importation by a one time or occasional importer does not trigger the same excise tax that an importation does for a fully licensed importer or manufacturer. The exception is justified by the further restriction that once I take possession of the gun, I can never resell it.
Shared knowledge is power.
F. Paul in Denver
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Guest
I will offer this humble advice.
When dealing with the ATF it is only prudent to request a ruling in writing on whatever it is you wish to do. To do otherwise is opening yourself up to the ambitions of any agent wanting to improve their status and exposing yourself to the draconian penalties of a Federal Prosecution. Having dealt with the Technical Branch more than once, I can tell you that possessing that approval letter makes you one of the blessed souls.
When dealing with the ATF it is only prudent to request a ruling in writing on whatever it is you wish to do. To do otherwise is opening yourself up to the ambitions of any agent wanting to improve their status and exposing yourself to the draconian penalties of a Federal Prosecution. Having dealt with the Technical Branch more than once, I can tell you that possessing that approval letter makes you one of the blessed souls.
18USC44 sec 921(a)(9) defines an importer as "...any person engaged in the business of importing...for purposes of sale or distribution...", so an occasional importation by a non-licensee seems, by definition, to be in a different situation.F. Paul in Denver wrote:
On the other hand, we dont let the IRS intimidate us into paying more income tax than the law requires just to make sure we dont go to jail.
Shared knowledge is power.
F. Paul in Denver
Personally, my guiding principle when auditing taxpayers books and records is that it is better to be approximately right than exactly wrong.
Richard
Re: Need help - ATF import rule on engraving
Have you at least *tried* contacting BATFE about this? I've heard they've become a lot better about responding in the past few months.
F. Paul in Denver wrote:Folks,
In reading ATF form 6A, it seems to require that a firearms importer must engrave an imported gun with the name, city, state of the importer.
While this seems pretty clear to me, I've been advised by another shooter who imported a gun that this was NOT required.
Can anyone clarify the issue for us?
Thanks
F. Paul in Denver
"I know for a fact that the importation by a one time or occasional importer does not trigger the same excise tax that an importation does for a fully licensed importer or manufacturer."
what is this "fact" based on? Certainly not the regs as the two sections I quoted earlier, imply exactly the opposite. I am not saying your wrong, if you can point me to something different, I would love to see it, as I have excise tax questions of my own at the moment, thus my search this morning, and still am not satisfied with all that I know ... but I agree 100% with Guest who stated
"When dealing with the ATF it is only prudent to request a ruling in writing on whatever it is you wish to do. To do otherwise is opening yourself up to the ambitions of any agent wanting to improve their status and exposing yourself to the draconian penalties of a Federal Prosecution. "
although I have never seen or heard of ATF actually issuing an individual letter for an individual issue, they only seem to make an open letter to licensees when an ongoing problem is encountered by numerous parties. I recently had personal experience trying to get a written statment from my local office, or the local office of the FFL in another state who was requiring something of me as the transferer of a firearm that I believed to be an illegal request, and so finally went to ATF's booth at the SHOT show, to ask for guidance, preferably in writting, but was referred to the regs, which I already knew, and had my opinion reinforced by the officer in question. .
"The exception is justified by the further restriction that once I take possession of the gun, I can never resell it."
this statement runs counter to the basis of the law, because the end purchaser of the product is exactly the one who IS liable for the tax, to fund wildlife conservation in the US. It is also why the tax is based on the retail value of the gun, not the much lower imported cost. The only exemption for non-payment of this tax that I am aware of is sales to DOD, DOJ, or educational institituions. At such a time as a gun leaves one of these entities, then the tax is triggered. And I do not of any statement in the regs that require you to abstain from re-selling said imported gun.
"Personally, my guiding principle when auditing taxpayers books and records is that it is better to be approximately right than exactly wrong. "
which is why I am stating my understanding of the regs, based on being in this business and dealing with ATF on regular basis, including attending ATF sponsored 3 day seminars for Importers approximately right is paying the excise tax and putting the importer information on it
"While my Pardini's both have Don Nygord's name on the guns---& Larry Carter has them on his Pardini's also---neither of my TOZ's have either Nygord nor Carter's on them, unless they are somewhere the sun don't shine."
I would bet that neither of your Toz'es were imported orignally by Larry or Don, as I am sure that neither would blatantly disregard this. I have seen many Toz's over the years that had Don's importer information on them, and I have a couple of them in the vault now in fact. Since Larry has only just started selling these it. Numerous Toz's have been brought in over the years by dozens of people, both privately and commercially, so having one without any markings, or reselling one , is highly likely to have happened by Don or Larry, or even myself for that matter.
what is this "fact" based on? Certainly not the regs as the two sections I quoted earlier, imply exactly the opposite. I am not saying your wrong, if you can point me to something different, I would love to see it, as I have excise tax questions of my own at the moment, thus my search this morning, and still am not satisfied with all that I know ... but I agree 100% with Guest who stated
"When dealing with the ATF it is only prudent to request a ruling in writing on whatever it is you wish to do. To do otherwise is opening yourself up to the ambitions of any agent wanting to improve their status and exposing yourself to the draconian penalties of a Federal Prosecution. "
although I have never seen or heard of ATF actually issuing an individual letter for an individual issue, they only seem to make an open letter to licensees when an ongoing problem is encountered by numerous parties. I recently had personal experience trying to get a written statment from my local office, or the local office of the FFL in another state who was requiring something of me as the transferer of a firearm that I believed to be an illegal request, and so finally went to ATF's booth at the SHOT show, to ask for guidance, preferably in writting, but was referred to the regs, which I already knew, and had my opinion reinforced by the officer in question. .
"The exception is justified by the further restriction that once I take possession of the gun, I can never resell it."
this statement runs counter to the basis of the law, because the end purchaser of the product is exactly the one who IS liable for the tax, to fund wildlife conservation in the US. It is also why the tax is based on the retail value of the gun, not the much lower imported cost. The only exemption for non-payment of this tax that I am aware of is sales to DOD, DOJ, or educational institituions. At such a time as a gun leaves one of these entities, then the tax is triggered. And I do not of any statement in the regs that require you to abstain from re-selling said imported gun.
"Personally, my guiding principle when auditing taxpayers books and records is that it is better to be approximately right than exactly wrong. "
which is why I am stating my understanding of the regs, based on being in this business and dealing with ATF on regular basis, including attending ATF sponsored 3 day seminars for Importers approximately right is paying the excise tax and putting the importer information on it
"While my Pardini's both have Don Nygord's name on the guns---& Larry Carter has them on his Pardini's also---neither of my TOZ's have either Nygord nor Carter's on them, unless they are somewhere the sun don't shine."
I would bet that neither of your Toz'es were imported orignally by Larry or Don, as I am sure that neither would blatantly disregard this. I have seen many Toz's over the years that had Don's importer information on them, and I have a couple of them in the vault now in fact. Since Larry has only just started selling these it. Numerous Toz's have been brought in over the years by dozens of people, both privately and commercially, so having one without any markings, or reselling one , is highly likely to have happened by Don or Larry, or even myself for that matter.
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F. Paul in Denver
Great discussion - I really appreciate everyone's input.
In reply to Sparky, I think contacting ATF is a great idea. It's something I deliberately put off until I had enough input from people who had actually been through the process so that I could be a little better prepared. You can bet my recorder will be on to make sure I document what I was told later if necessary.
From what I have gathered so far, ATF creates two categories of importers:
1. Licensed importers like our host, Larry Carter, Nygord etc etc.
2. One time and occasional importers. These individuals file a Form 6 and are issued an import permit - NOT A LICENSE.
Unlike licensed importers, one time and occasional (form 6) importers are strictly forbidden from reselling any firearm they import.
The crux of the issue is the definition of "licensed importer" found in the federal code of regulations at 27 CFR 11. Specifically, it says that a "licensed importer" is one who is engaged in the "business of importing."
I think this definition provides a critical distinction. A person who imports via a form six (and is therefore prohibited from reselling), cannot be a "licensed importer" because the firearm is restricted to personal use as opposed to being used in a business.
It seems that this definition is what separates the person brining a gun in via a form 6 from those in the business like our host, Larry Carter etc whose primary purpose for the import is to conduct business.
Finally, the requirement to engrave (this was the original question) seems to apply apply to "licensed importers" - the definition of which is not applicable to form 6 situations.
Before I do anything, I will definitely take this up with ATF and TTB and will post what I find out.
Thanks to all again for your indulgence and helpful comments.
In reply to Sparky, I think contacting ATF is a great idea. It's something I deliberately put off until I had enough input from people who had actually been through the process so that I could be a little better prepared. You can bet my recorder will be on to make sure I document what I was told later if necessary.
From what I have gathered so far, ATF creates two categories of importers:
1. Licensed importers like our host, Larry Carter, Nygord etc etc.
2. One time and occasional importers. These individuals file a Form 6 and are issued an import permit - NOT A LICENSE.
Unlike licensed importers, one time and occasional (form 6) importers are strictly forbidden from reselling any firearm they import.
The crux of the issue is the definition of "licensed importer" found in the federal code of regulations at 27 CFR 11. Specifically, it says that a "licensed importer" is one who is engaged in the "business of importing."
I think this definition provides a critical distinction. A person who imports via a form six (and is therefore prohibited from reselling), cannot be a "licensed importer" because the firearm is restricted to personal use as opposed to being used in a business.
It seems that this definition is what separates the person brining a gun in via a form 6 from those in the business like our host, Larry Carter etc whose primary purpose for the import is to conduct business.
Finally, the requirement to engrave (this was the original question) seems to apply apply to "licensed importers" - the definition of which is not applicable to form 6 situations.
Before I do anything, I will definitely take this up with ATF and TTB and will post what I find out.
Thanks to all again for your indulgence and helpful comments.
not to be redundant, but the definations equate having a Form 6 with a license. They only difference I can see in regulatory requirements between an occasional importer as you would be and someone engaging in the business is the requirement for the annual importers license.
Its not about what you think or I think, or someone who has done "occasional" imports 20 times or more (IMHO should be classified a dealer,but thats another story) its about whats written in law and the interpeting regulations AND the enforcement point by ATF at the current time. And it is the third point that I think that has caused the misconceptions that you and others have had at various times. Just becuase ATF has not persued these violations in the past, for lack of manpower or whatever, does not mean that if they choose to, that they can use the first two, the laws and regs, to take a bite out of you if they want to.
In your case, lets say you piss of someone, with good connectiosn to the DA, they come knocking at your door with trumped up charges, you name them, it could be a litany of things, but lets take drugs, that seems the most convenent way to trample the first 10 amendments these days. They just want dig around your house , hoping they'll find something. Of course, they are going to look at your guns. Oh, heres a Hammerli 208 with no importers markings... hmmm, lets do some research, hey this guy got a form 6 two years ago for this gun. Hmmmm no excise tax was paid. no importers markings. Now we "definately"have an illegal gun, tax evasion, a firearm with illegal markings,you name the spin all related to dangerous "automatic pistol" .
So how wrong are the headlines the next day, that say "Local attorney charged with illegal semi-auto, or tax evasion, in conncetion with suspected drug charges". They, they being the DA, or the ATF, or the local police in conjunction with their stoolies at the local press, are already ruining your reputation and as they paste mutlitple charges to their house of card attach on you. But enough charges make jury think, well, he must be guilty of something, lets pick one of these lesser ones.
And yes, I have personally seen nearly this exact same scenario go down and a good friend, a local chief of police, go to federal prison.
So if you can get clarification in writing saying what you beleive on ATF letterhead, then you will help us all. But its to thier advantaget to leave things ambigous, and I am going to be real suprised if you can get such a letter.
Its not about what you think or I think, or someone who has done "occasional" imports 20 times or more (IMHO should be classified a dealer,but thats another story) its about whats written in law and the interpeting regulations AND the enforcement point by ATF at the current time. And it is the third point that I think that has caused the misconceptions that you and others have had at various times. Just becuase ATF has not persued these violations in the past, for lack of manpower or whatever, does not mean that if they choose to, that they can use the first two, the laws and regs, to take a bite out of you if they want to.
In your case, lets say you piss of someone, with good connectiosn to the DA, they come knocking at your door with trumped up charges, you name them, it could be a litany of things, but lets take drugs, that seems the most convenent way to trample the first 10 amendments these days. They just want dig around your house , hoping they'll find something. Of course, they are going to look at your guns. Oh, heres a Hammerli 208 with no importers markings... hmmm, lets do some research, hey this guy got a form 6 two years ago for this gun. Hmmmm no excise tax was paid. no importers markings. Now we "definately"have an illegal gun, tax evasion, a firearm with illegal markings,you name the spin all related to dangerous "automatic pistol" .
So how wrong are the headlines the next day, that say "Local attorney charged with illegal semi-auto, or tax evasion, in conncetion with suspected drug charges". They, they being the DA, or the ATF, or the local police in conjunction with their stoolies at the local press, are already ruining your reputation and as they paste mutlitple charges to their house of card attach on you. But enough charges make jury think, well, he must be guilty of something, lets pick one of these lesser ones.
And yes, I have personally seen nearly this exact same scenario go down and a good friend, a local chief of police, go to federal prison.
So if you can get clarification in writing saying what you beleive on ATF letterhead, then you will help us all. But its to thier advantaget to leave things ambigous, and I am going to be real suprised if you can get such a letter.
Unfortunately, the folks at BATFE do not have the same reputation for sensitivity and understanding as the IRS people:-)
ATF Ruling 2002-6 is almost on point. It rules on what is acceptable marking for an imported firearm, but refers only to licensed importers.
I recommend that an interested party. i.e., F. Paul or Scott, request a clarification of 2002-6 as it applies to occaisional importation by a non-licensee. Maybe a new ATF Ruling will come out of this!
ATF Ruling 2002-6 is almost on point. It rules on what is acceptable marking for an imported firearm, but refers only to licensed importers.
I recommend that an interested party. i.e., F. Paul or Scott, request a clarification of 2002-6 as it applies to occaisional importation by a non-licensee. Maybe a new ATF Ruling will come out of this!
Recently, the President signed into law the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (Public Law 109–59, 119 Stat. 1144). This act amends section 4182 of the IRC by adding a provision that exempts from the tax any pistol, revolver, or firearm if it was manufactured, produced, or imported by a person who manufactures, produces, or imports less than an aggregate of 50 of such articles during the calendar year.
The new exemption went into effect on October 1, 2005. Since FAET is paid quarterly, this corresponded to the beginning of the new tax quarter (October 1 through December 31, 2005).
Further, this exemption has prospective application in that it has no effect on the tax liability of a manufacturer, producer, or importer prior to October 1, 2005.
For the FAET, an importer is any person who brings firearms or ammunition (shells or cartridges) into the United States, or who withdraws such an article from a customs bonded warehouse for sale or use in the United States.
Under most circumstances, the person who causes and directs the importation will be liable for the excise tax upon sale or use. Consequently, the person who is listed on a government form as an importer may not be the importer for excise tax purposes. For example, a person obtains firearms and then pays a fee to a licensed Federal firearms importer to bring in firearms. In this case, the person (that is, the beneficial owner) is the person who paid the fee to the licensed importer and is responsible for the manufacturers excise tax upon the sale or use of the firearms or ammunition.
The new exemption went into effect on October 1, 2005. Since FAET is paid quarterly, this corresponded to the beginning of the new tax quarter (October 1 through December 31, 2005).
Further, this exemption has prospective application in that it has no effect on the tax liability of a manufacturer, producer, or importer prior to October 1, 2005.
For the FAET, an importer is any person who brings firearms or ammunition (shells or cartridges) into the United States, or who withdraws such an article from a customs bonded warehouse for sale or use in the United States.
Under most circumstances, the person who causes and directs the importation will be liable for the excise tax upon sale or use. Consequently, the person who is listed on a government form as an importer may not be the importer for excise tax purposes. For example, a person obtains firearms and then pays a fee to a licensed Federal firearms importer to bring in firearms. In this case, the person (that is, the beneficial owner) is the person who paid the fee to the licensed importer and is responsible for the manufacturers excise tax upon the sale or use of the firearms or ammunition.
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F. Paul in Denver
Some answers
Thanks to GOVT MODEL, I now have ATF and TTB documents that clarify the two issues we have been discussing:
1. EXCISE TAX LIABILITY:
1. A person who imports less than 50 guns per calendar year is NOT subject to the excise tax on anything imported AFTER 10/05. This "49 gun exemption" applies to one time and occasional importers who use a form 6 as in my case. Interestingly, the 49 gun exemption from excise tax also applies to those in the business of importing.
2. ENGRAVING
Acccording to the ATF instructions on form 6A (5330.3C) - the engraving requirement DOES NOT apply to the one time or occasional importer who use an FFL as the importer. The engraving requirement DOES apply to those in the business of importing.
Since I also believe you shouldnt just take my word for it, I'm happy to provide these government documents to anyone who requests them for their own personal review. Send your request to me at:
paul@figlialaw.com
Once again many thanks to everyone who pitched in especially GOVT MODEL for his invaluable research efforts.
F. Paul in Denver
1. EXCISE TAX LIABILITY:
1. A person who imports less than 50 guns per calendar year is NOT subject to the excise tax on anything imported AFTER 10/05. This "49 gun exemption" applies to one time and occasional importers who use a form 6 as in my case. Interestingly, the 49 gun exemption from excise tax also applies to those in the business of importing.
2. ENGRAVING
Acccording to the ATF instructions on form 6A (5330.3C) - the engraving requirement DOES NOT apply to the one time or occasional importer who use an FFL as the importer. The engraving requirement DOES apply to those in the business of importing.
Since I also believe you shouldnt just take my word for it, I'm happy to provide these government documents to anyone who requests them for their own personal review. Send your request to me at:
paul@figlialaw.com
Once again many thanks to everyone who pitched in especially GOVT MODEL for his invaluable research efforts.
F. Paul in Denver
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silentwind
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:26 pm
- Location: Bellefonte, PA
ATF response.
I emailed the ATF recently concerning an AK47 look alike airgun made in russia to see if it was legal. They came back and said they usually do not reply to email requests for rulings but as this very question was addressed in the regulations they emailed me a copy of the ruling and answered my question. I did not like the answer but they did answer.
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F. Paul in Denver