Why are shooting events still sexist?

[David Levene]

Here is a question does it actually state anywhere in the ISSF rules that you have to be a man to shoot FP?

As above, 8.15.0

[RobStubbs]

I knew it was just a matter of time before David found the relevant section ;-)

Rob.

[David Levene]

I knew it was just a matter of time before David found the relevant section ;-)

Cheeky beggar, that's one I know without looking it up (as are 8.16.0 & 8.17.0)

[Richard H]

Thanks, I wasn't even close to that yet. I hate looking at the electronic copy of the rules. My print copies are on the way. I would have figured there would have been a more specific rule on genders, rather than one word in a table.

[Ned]

FP is men's international event but that doesn't prevent a country federation to have specific event on national level even though it doesn't confirm to strict ISSF regulations. In France like in Canada women shot FP and men (senior) shoot sport pistol.

The regulations neither doesn't prevent to be inventive. Let's look at the following page on UsaShooting.com entitled "Rapid Fire Pistol in the 2008 Quadrennium" written by By National Pistol Team Coach Sergey Luzov.

http://www.usashooting.com/modules.php? ... 244&page=1
.....

Additionally, beginning with the 2005 National Championships (USASNC), USA Shooting will offer an "Unrestricted" category, which permits (among other things) optical sights. This new category, combined with the rapid fire equipment changes, means that every single conventional pistol shooter in the United States has a pistol that he can use to compete in rapid fire in the National Championships. Better yet, every bullseye pistol shooter in the country has a pistol that he or she can lend to a junior, and maybe even coach that junior to become a rapid fire champion.

...

You read it well, the unrestricted category allows optical sights.

So the bottom line is, if you can have RF event for men which is not ISSF compliant why not have FP for women ?

Ok, the idea is to promote RF which is olympic event, but you can always say that shooting FP is excellent for hold and shooters who shot AP can take benefits from shooting FP.

- Ned

[John J]

It's called discussing an issue, just because it's a discussion that you don't seem interested in that doesn't make it whinning. If you don't want to participate in the discussion just go on your merry way an keep your childish comments to yourself.

That's what I thought....you would rather **discuss** it to death rather than actually try and do something to effect a change. That my friend amounts to whining ---- or "complaining" if you find whining too inflamatory a word.

[Richard H]

It's called discussing an issue, just because it's a discussion that you don't seem interested in that doesn't make it whinning. If you don't want to participate in the discussion just go on your merry way an keep your childish comments to yourself.

That's what I thought....you would rather **discuss** it to death rather than actually try and do something to effect a change. That my friend amounts to whining ---- or "complaining" if you find whining too inflamatory a word.

Thank-you John J for your illuminating comments and your contribution to this forum. I find you your comments and educated wit truly a joy, I'm just glad that this discussion has moved you to participate and share your knowledge and experience. I'm sure we could all learn much from you.

[Bill Poole]

Looking at the first 40 shots of the Air Pistol matches that just occured in Guang Zhou:

only 3 women in the top 25 and NONE in the "finals"

data from only one match, but that's all I had time for.

WHY do the top women not do as well as the top men in the 40 shots? Physical? training? competition? access to coaching? expectations? concentration?

(My PB would put me about midway down the pack)


1 M 1306 JIN, Jong Oh KOR 97 98 99 98 392
2 M 1408 KIM, Jong Su PRK 97 98 100 97 392
3 M 1445 GONTCHAROV, Vladimir RUS 99 99 99 95 392
4 M 1454 NESTRUEV, Mikhail RUS 98 97 98 98 391
5 M 1447 EKIMOV, Leonid RUS 99 95 98 98 390
6 M 1045 KIRIAKOV, Tanyu BUL 98 97 97 98 390
7 M 1410 KIM, Hyon Ung PRK 97 98 97 98 390
8 M 1078 LIN, Zhongzai CHN 98 97 99 96 390

9 F 1087 REN, Jie CHN 99 98 97 96 390
10 M 1033 DAUHAPOLAU, Yury BLR 97 96 98 98 389
11 M 1276 KOBAYASHI, Susumu JPN 97 98 98 96 389
12 M 1160 LENGERER, Patrik GER 98 98 97 96 389
13 M 1065 ZHANG, Tian CHN 92 98 98 100 388
14 M 1557 PETRIV, Oleksandr UKR 95 99 95 99 388
15 M 1301 KIM, Sung Su KOR 99 96 95 98 388
16 M 1212 JUNG, Samresh IND 96 98 97 97 388
17 M 1514 PANICHPATIKUM, Jakkrit THA 96 98 98 96 388
18 M 1500 TUZINSKY, Juraj SVK 99 97 98 94 388
19 M 1574 ROSE, Thomas USA 96 95 98 98 387
20 M 1079 TAN, Zongliang CHN 95 97 97 98 387
21 F 1458 SMIRNOVA, Svetlana RUS 96 98 95 98 387
22 M 1032 LUKASHYK, Kanstantsin BLR 96 94 98 98 386
23 M 1176 WONG, Fai HKG 94 99 95 98 386
24 M 1284 YUNUSMETOV, Rashid KAZ 97 97 95 97 386
25 F 1377 OTRYAD, Gundegmaa MGL 97 98 95 96 386
26 M 1409 RYU, Myong Yon PRK 95 97 99 95 386
27 M 1556 OMELCHUK, Oleg UKR 97 98 96 95 386
28 M 1004 REPACHOLI, Daniel AUS 95 97 95 98 385
29 M 1515 TANTINVACHAI, Bhawin THA 97 94 97 97 385
30 F 1313 LEE, Ho Lim KOR 96 96 96 97 385
31 M 1258 DANILOV, Alexander ISR 95 97 97 96 385
32 F 1469 SEKARIC, Jasna SCG 96 97 96 96 385
33 M 1403 COSTA, Joao POR 97 97 95 96 385
34 M 1268 BRUNO, Francesco ITA 96 97 97 95 385
35 M 1508 BONANDER, Anders SWE 98 99 93 95 385
36 M 1480 FLURY, Martin SUI 98 97 97 93 385
37 F 1023 BAGHIROVA, Nigar AZE 96 97 93 98 384
38 F 1112 FRANQUET, Sonia ESP 97 96 94 97 384
39 M 1128 JAHNSSON, Kaj FIN 96 96 96 96 384
40 F 1102 MEYERHOFF, Susanne DEN 96 98 94 96 384
41 M 1501 KOPP, Pavol SVK 95 98 96 95 384
42 M 1048 GAYDARSKY, Stoian BUL 98 96 95 95 384
43 M 1536 CHANG, Yi Ning TPE 92 96 97 98 383
44 M 1561 RYBOVALOV, Ivan UKR 92 98 95 98 383
45 F 1459 KOUSNETSOVA, Olga RUS 97 94 95 97 383
46 M 1302 SHIM, Sang Bo KOR 95 95 97 96 383
47 M 1159 USTAOGLU, Abdullah GER 97 95 95 96 383
48 F 1024 ASHUMOVA, Irada AZE 94 98 96 95 383
49 M 1158 MEYER, Hans Joerg GER 99 94 96 94 383
50 M 1108 LORENZO, Isidro ESP 96 95 93 98 382
51 M 1216 SINGH, Vivek IND 93 97 96 96 382
52 F 1052 GROZDEVA, Maria BUL 96 94 97 95 382
53 F 1460 MOZGALOVA, Kira RUS 98 96 93 95 382
54 M 1481 SCHMID, Christoph SUI 93 99 97 93 382
55 F 1080 LI, Jie CHN 95 99 95 93 382
56 F 1113 FERNANDEZ, Maria Pilar ESP 97 99 93 93 382
57 F 1415 HYANG SUN Ri PRK 92 98 93 98 381
58 M 1286 ISSACHENKO, Vladimir KAZ 96 95 94 96 381
59 F 1168 THURMANN, Stefanie GER 93 97 96 95 381
60 F 1378 TSOGBADRAH, Munkzul MGL 94 97 95 95 381
61 F 1537 HUANG, Yi Ling TPE 94 98 94 95 381
62 F 1095 WANG, Li CHN 95 97 94 95 381
63 M 1498 FABO, Jan SVK 99 94 93 95 381
64 F 1538 TSAI, Chia-Hui TPE 95 96 96 94 381
65 M 1269 GIORDANO, Giuseppe ITA 93 96 91 100 380
66 M 1577 ENNIS, John USA 95 91 96 98 380
67 F 1146 SALUKVADZE, Nino GEO 94 93 97 96 380
68 F 1050 BONEVA, Antoaneta BUL 94 95 95 96 380
69 F 1194 CSONKA, Zsofia HUN 96 93 95 96 380
70 F 1221 CHAUDHRY, Shweta IND 96 96 92 96 380
71 M 1575 SZARENSKI, Daryl USA 94 96 95 95 380
72 M 1267 FAIT, Vigilio ITA 97 93 95 95 380
73 F 1039 CHAIKA, Viktoria BLR 97 95 94 94 380
74 M 1482 MEIER, Rolf SUI 93 97 91 98 379
75 M 1587 MUKHTAROV, Dilshod UZB 96 92 94 97 379
76 F 1010 ASPANDIYAROVA, Dina AUS 95 96 93 95 379
77 F 1009 YAUHLEUSKAYA, Lalita AUS 94 94 98 93 379
78 F 1492 KOLLY, Sandra SUI 96 97 93 93 379
79 F 1008 MCKENZIE Pam AUS 96 94 97 92 379
80 M 1219 RANA, Jaspal IND 97 93 97 92 379
81 M 1243 BARKHORDARI, Ebrahim IRI 97 94 96 92 379
82 F 1489 RIEDER, Monika SUI 93 96 95 94 378
83 F 1278 FUKUSHIMA, Michiko JPN 95 95 95 93 378
84 F 1563 KOSTEVYCH, Olena UKR 96 95 94 93 378
85 F 1167 VERDICCHIO, Claudia GER 97 95 94 92 378
86 M 1005 MARTIN, Patrick AUS 95 94 98 91 378
87 F 1038 SHAPIALEVICH, Zhanna BLR 91 91 98 97 377
88 M 1125 TURJA, Jyrki FIN 94 91 95 97 377
89 F 1310 PARK, Jung Hee KOR 90 96 94 97 377
90 M 1391 Al Hasani Said OMA 96 92 93 96 377
91 F 1516 PRUCKSAKORN, Tanyaporn THA 95 95 91 96 377
92 F 1562 KOROSTYLOVA, Yulia UKR 93 95 94 95 377
93 F 1251 HASSANPOOR Nasim IRI 94 96 92 95 377
94 F 1249 AKASHEH, Shokoofeh IRI 96 94 93 94 377
95 M 1241 HOSSINI, Seyed Hossein IRI 91 96 97 93 377
96 F 1230 RANA, Sonia IND 94 95 95 93 377
97 F 1580 CALLAHAN, Elizabeth USA 94 95 96 92 377
98 F 1291 BAIBUSSINOVA, Zauresh KAZ 95 94 96 92 377
99 F 1491 FROELICH, Cornelia SUI 96 92 92 96 376
100 M 1375 SAMDANDOVJID, Zolboo MGL 92 97 92 95 376
101 F 1365 NG, Pei Chin Bibian MAS 94 96 91 95 376
102 F 1579 SNYDER, Rebecca USA 92 96 97 91 376
103 F 1414 KANG, Un Byol PRK 91 93 98 93 375
104 F 1521 CHAISA-ARD, Phanchang THA 95 93 94 93 375
105 M 1034 KUDZI, Vitali BLR 97 93 93 92 375
106 M 1535 WANG, Hao Chun TPE 89 95 94 96 374
107 M 1022 LUNEV, Ruslan AZE 95 94 90 95 374
108 F 1288 BONDAREVA, Juliya KAZ 94 94 94 92 374
109 F 1049 KOSTOVA, Monika BUL 94 95 93 92 374
110 M 1396 Al Hashmi Said OMA 93 93 97 91 374
111 F 1539 MA, Yu Mei TPE 94 95 94 91 374
112 F 1181 CHAN, Lai Ping HKG 92 91 95 95 373
113 F 1359 CHAN, Pou Pou MAC 96 89 93 95 373
114 F 1317 LA, Kyung Ae KOR 91 94 95 93 373
115 M 1240 MAJD, Armin IRI 91 89 97 95 372
116 F 1235 SRAO, Harven IND 92 93 94 93 372
117 M 1547 ALNUAIMI, Mohamed UAE 93 97 90 92 372
118 F 1333 Al Qallaf Awatef KUW 89 95 93 94 371
119 M 1548 AHMAD, Adel UAE 91 96 91 93 371
120 F 1184 LI, Mei Wun HKG 95 90 93 92 370
121 F 1133 SALO, Jaana FIN 89 93 97 91 370
122 M 1175 LAI, Chun Kong HKG 90 96 93 91 370
123 F 1132 KESKITALO, Karoliina FIN 91 91 91 93 366
124 F 1518 TRAKLILTONGJARERN, Ploypa.. THA 89 92 95 90 366
125 F 1430 Al Khater Souad QAT 93 90 92 89 364
126 M 1173 WONG, Siu Lung HKG 91 87 93 91 362
127 F 1368 ISHVARI JAHNAVA Devi Dasi MAS 89 88 91 93 361
128 F 1327 ISMAIL, Zainab KUW 91 93 91 86 361
129 F 1376 TUMURCHUDUR, Bayarmaa MGL 90 90 91 89 360
130 F 1332 ALSHARHAN, Dalal KUW 93 92 86 88 359
131 F 1185 IP, Pui YI HKG 91 86 93 88 358
132 M 1126 FEDERLEY, Petri FIN 84 93 87 93 357
133 M 1379 ALTANSUKH, Misheelt MGL 88 90 93 85 356
134 M 1393 Al Jawhari Salem OMA 90 87 90 87 354
135 F 1358 VONG, Lok In MAC 84 84 92 91 351

[Nicole Hamilton]

WHY do the top women not do as well as the top men in the 40 shots?

It's impossible to say for sure what the reason is without more data, so any of the hypotheses you suggest are indeed possible. But my personal opinion is that the more likely explanation is that there simply aren't as many women shooters from which to find those extraordinary outlyers.

Think of male and female shooters as belonging to populations for which we might graph their expected scores. Let the X-axis be the score and the Y-axis be the probability that a randomly-selected shooter from that population will turn in that score. The expected number of shooters in a population (i.e., the number of men or the number of women) turning in a given score is the probability within that population times the size of the population. In effect, to find a male or female shooter capable of a given score, you just need to start with enough of them.

If the two distributions for men and women shooters were exactly the same, i.e., same X% probability of any given man or woman turning in any particular score, that would suggest there was no difference between men's and women's abilities.

But even if there were no difference in ability due to gender, we should still expect to observe many more top male shooters than female shooters and that the top male would likely be much better than the top female. That's because calculating the expected number of men or women turning in a given score isn't just about probability, it's probability times the population size.

This is why I've suggested that comparing top scores is not likely to be meaningful as a way of deciding if males have an advantage. A better comparison would be of means and standard deviations.

[Bill Poole]

Good point, if for cultural reasons women are less likely to take up shooting than men, then those top women are doing non-shooting things.... I can see that in the US where there is a media-induced political hatred against shooting, but why in china or other places where shooting champions are treated as national heroes?

and HOW do we get more ladies to take up shooting, at least try it?



Poole

[mikeschroeder]

Hi

My current 4H/City parks department BB-Gun and Air Rifle class is 12 boys. Three Mommies bring the boys and only two Dads..... The class two summers ago was 14 girls. I haven't been charting, I can try to though. Advertising is the SAME and uniform.

Mike
Wichita KS

[Richard H]

I find at the matches I go to there are more junior women than men but at some point it seems the few guys stay in the sport and all the women leave.

[75 and still shooting!!]

Tradition sucks I guess!!!!!!